Talk:Eilistraee

Death debate
Eilistraee is actually not dead. After much debate with other fans I asked the author of the book where she "died". She explained that she left loopholes preventing her death, fully. The emails are on my website eilistraee.org

The cannon books by wizards state, quite often, that a God may ONLY be killed on their own plane. The sword which "killed" Eilistraee killed Lolth's champion, Selvetarm, but he was in his own plane (Lolth's) when he died. In the Avatar set of four books, Ao binds the Gods to the mortal realms and effectively allows them to die if killed. The Gods make reference to this rule often. During the battle where Araushnee tries to kill Correlon with Eilistraee's arrow, many Gods are hit by massively powerful Godly weapons, only the fade back to their worlds.

WOTC officially mandated her death and the author was forced to comply. But, by their OWN rules and canon, she cannot be. I would maintain that she is wounded and recovering. WOTC may one day regain their senses, or not, but she cannot actually be dead based on what happened. --Lotus253 19:38, February 12, 2011 (UTC)Lotus@Eilistraee.org


 * Sadly, this is only wishful thinking - albeit well-researched wishful thinking. She could be alive, as could a number of others (Azuth comes to mind, having died in the Nine Hells). As you say, unless Wizards decides to change her status, she's going to remain dead. Cronje (talk &sdot; contribs) 21:41, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Because WOTC may never use her again and says she is dead, it is effectively the case, but by technical game rules, and from the author who killed her, she is very much alive. If nothing more, WOTC made, in my personal opinion, an extremely bad choice in killing her. She provided a rich dynamic to Drow. Luckily, she is alive in any games DM's add her too, such as me, and the loophole remains in the very unlikely event WOTC brought her back. --Lotus253 22:18, February 12, 2011 (UTC)Lotus@Eilistraee.org

I believe Eilistraee must be dead even according to canon. Maybe Azuth is still alive and out there somewhere, that's a very good point I never thought of, but Eilistraee definitely isn't. It's like during the time of troubles, when Ao kicked all the gods out of their home planes. Once all their essence was on the Prime Material Plain, they could be easily, and more importantly, PERMANENTLY, killed. They no longer have part of themselves hidden away at home.

Now, the whole reason Eilistraee inhabited Qilue was because she lost her game with Lolth. That means she's gonna die. Kiaransalee died too, you know, and she wasn't attacked on her home plane. But she lost the game, so she got killed, admittedly through a mortal agent, but I notice you don't think SHE'S coming back. So what I believe happened to Eilistraee is that she fled her home plane, became vulnerable to attack just like all the gods did during the Time of Troubles, and died in a painfully permanent fashion. Then again, maybe her essence on her home plane got attacked and destroyed at the same time, as a result of the way their game worked, or else because of the game she became able to be killed even away from home. Maybe she sort of signed over the rights to her life and staked it as her wager in their game (that IS what it sounded like to me!) and lost her right to exist somehow. I really don't know, but either way she has to be dead.

I agree that she made the drow much more interesting, and I'm disappointed she's dead, but if that's the way it happened, just live with it. Besides, I didn't really like her so much. She was too like Lolth, with her matriarchies and the way drow males seem to be almost as abused under her as under Lolth. Ryld Argith had that complaint, if I remember correctly. He didn't see any difference between his position in a Lolthian society and with the Eilistraeeans. And Eilistraee's priestesses (sorry - no priests allowed) are obsessed with hunting down anything "evil" out of some misguided belief that it will vindicate their existence. Remember that harmless werewolf in War of the Spider Queen book 6? he wasn't hurting anyone, just wanted peace and solitude, but got killed merely for existing. That was just cruel and pointless. So although I will miss the delightfully warped war of the drow, I really believe Faerûn will be a better place for her absence. 66.241.5.38 19:18, January 30, 2012 (UTC)Eschwartz

PERMANENTLY DEAD? Like Bane and Torm were permanently dead after the avatar trilogy? WOTC made many many bad choices with 4th edition, killing Eilistraee was just one of them. She was really popular among players. It's not the fault of WOTC, they had orders from Hasbro from what I understand. Giving your customers what they want seems to be a smart business strategy. Run your campaigns however you like. I run straight 3.5, the 4th edition world is just another (ultra-vanilla) alternate prime material plane. WOTC is wising up due to poor sales, lets see what they do with the next edition of D&D. 24.199.4.206 20:33, March 27, 2012 (UTC)Noldor858

About what Eschwarz said concerning the hunting down attitude of the Eilistraeens: that's novels' wrong depiction of the goddess, both in WotSQ and LP.

According to the sourcebooks, Eilistraee's main theme is freedom of life and of self expression and acceptance of all beings who revel in life, with no discrimination or prejudice. What she teaches to her drow is that a joyful existence, different from the one they've been brainwashed into believing the only way, is possible, where all beings live in harmony, free to choose their life, their ideas and to fulfill themselves without the shackles of any pointless dogma. To do this, the Dark Maiden uses lighthearted aspects of life, like song and dance, and kindness to open drow minds, to make them understand, like a mother would do, that they have a choice and to let them find their own, spontaneous way to redemption.

This is an extremely open minded and tolerant attitude, which does not include violence at all, on any being (even the ones who may appear as evil, like werewolves, because there is hope of redemption for everyone) and it is this beautiful concept that Eilistraee is about.

In the novels, however, her followers do nothing but slaughtering everyone, which is clearly out of character. Those books offer a warped portrayal of Eilistraee, totally unfitting in many ways. Her priestess are depicted as sexist, but they shouldn't be so. The gender selective clergy is mainly due to Eilistraee being intended by the designers as a mother goddess for the drow, so that priestesses fit this flavor better than males. Authors of the books made the jump from this to OMG Eilistraee is sexist, ruining the character.

Besides the ending of LP isn't what the Dark Maiden would have done, at all. It says that she purposefully gave herself for her followers (and that's totally fitting), but what about all the other drow? By doing what she did, basically said to every other dark elf either you spontaneously redeem and become one of my follwers -yes, I don't care if you haven't ever heard of me- or I don't care about you, not to mention depriving the ones not yet born of any chance of freedom and redemption. This sacrifice thing was done just to mask the purpose of the novels: only getting rid of the drow pantheon. It's not what Eilistraee would have done. This is the whole unwilling were cast down thingy that the Dark Maiden would never even take in consideration. She can't actually 'redeem' the ones who're already seeking alternatives to Lolth, she can just help and love them. It's the others, the ones still brainwashed, that need her support the most.

Not to mention that she wouldn't even have had reasons to engage Lolth in her power games about the fate of her children. As I said she's about opposition to the stupid injustice committed on ALL the Dark Elves millenia ago and to the oppression they are shackled to now, and about offering hope of redemption and -freedom- of life to them, not about she's not about get Lolth. She doesn't care about her pretty games, and a free spirit like her would never accept to be constrained to the her mother's rules when she can keep freeing the drow without doing so. That wouldn't make much sense.

Luckily tho, it looks like the devs at WotC realized the crappy way this goddess was treated and that she and her brother gave depth to an otherwise flat and homogenous race like the drow.

One of the people who worked on the upcoming Menzoberranzan sourcebook posted this: on the Chosen of Eilistraee board.

No god is permanently dead in the Realms and, soon(probably), the Dark Maiden won't be dead at all :D

It's kinda pointless now that Eilistraee is alive, but I'll give my take on this. Despite Halisstra's actions, it could be that Eilistraee wasn't killed at all. When the Lady Penitent used the Crescent Blade against Qilué Veladorn, the latter was being inhabited by the Dark Maiden, holding a part of her power (since, as said on Hallowed Ground deities can not flee their realm and fully manifest themselves on the material plane). That would mean that the blade didn't hit the goddess herself, but the part of her essence infused in her chosen's body. In addition to that, deities can only be truly killed while in their planar realm or by being starved of followers (which is what happened to Kiaransalee), so Eilistraee's survival can not be excluded. Furthermore, the Crescent Blade could not destroy souls anymore after being reforged, as was shown by Cavatina Xarann's soul surviving her body being killed by the sword.

There was new lore developed re this fact, that was supposed to be included in the 4e Menzo sourcebook, but that didn't make to the final version of the book.

"Hello everyone! I'm Eric Menge, the secondary author for Menzoberranzan with Brian James. My apologies for not posting earlier, but I didn't have anything I was able to share until the book was published. No that it had, I hope you will take a look at it. The art is incredible and there are many great bits in the book including a Worth system which could be used to track how drow fall out of favor of Lolth and into favor of Eilistraee.

I was in charge of the Eilistraee portion of the book. I asked (begged might be a more accurate term) for that section, because I love the Dark Maiden and wanted her to have a prominent role in the book, since she has had such a prominent presence in the Forgotten Realms. As Brian said on the Candlekeep forum, the section that addressed Eilistraee and Vhaeraun heading into the future did not make the final cut. We worked very hard on it and fought as hard as we could to include it. Ultimately, the decision lay with the editors.

Since I'm not privy to WotC's future plans, it may be because they are bringing all the gods back through the Sundering. In addition, WotC is freeing the Forgotten Realms temporally. They will be supporting products in a variety of time periods. In most of those time periods, Eilistraee will still be alive and a power in the Realms, so you may see new lore that way.

While I cannot share the text of what I submitted to WotC, Irennan is pretty much spot on in our idea of how to keep consistent with the old lore while returning Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The Masked Lady sacrificed her divinity and returned as an archfey -- actually two archfey. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee lost their names in the sacrifice and only had their ancestral titles of the Mask on the Moon and the Dancing Maiden. While the archfey cannot grant spells, PCs would directly interact with the spirits that were Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They ruled from the Grotto of SIlver and Shadow (the map was included in the map pack), which has fallen into ruin in the centuries that they were gods. So drow servants of the Lord and Lady have two great tasks -- fight the oppression of Lolth while reclaiming a feydark realm from the wilderness and evil fey such as the fomorians. This gives judges two great campaigns - one based entirely in the feydark and dealing with other fey and one in the Underdark continuing the fight against Lolth and her minions.

While the archfey cannot grant spells, followers of the archfey would directly interact with the spirits that were once Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Their followers would be far fewer than before, making every PC who serves the Lady and the Lord that much more important. Also, servants of Lolth are searching for the hidden Grotto and hunting the Lady and the Lord's followers constantly. Being a servant of the archfey would be a harrowing experience of a rebel, fighting overwhelming odds.

I second Brian's recommendation to let WotC know that you want Eilistraee content.If another people ask for it, they may publish the cut content as a DDI article. I still have all the text and could put it together into DDI format inside of a week.

I wrote up many of the art orders. The drow in the white dress is a follower of the Dancing Maiden. Brian and I do care about your little corner of the fanbase. Always have; always will.

Eric"

This lore could still be released, since WotC still owns it.--Tsammarco (talk) 15:08, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

I also think that the game was just a huge metaphor. We have two possibilities: the actions in the game determine what happens, or the actions of mortals do. In the first case, the actions of the mortals, reflected by the pieces moving on the board, would be pointless, since the result would be decided by the game, no matter what happened on the Prime. If the actions of the followers actually determined their own outcome and-say- a move could only be made after the same thing happened on the Prime, then the game would be pointless except as a metaphor, since the various moves would just be representations of what happens in the world. There's also the fact that Eilistraee (or Vhaeraun) gambling everything she has fought for over millennia on a game, or playing a game over the fate of her people (especially when she could have simply kept doing what she was doing before, with the power that she acquired during the Silence of Lolth) and all the other deities mindlessly joining in, is rather stupid IMHO. Considering this, I'm leaning towards the second option: the game used as a representation of what the followers do.--Tsammarco (talk) 15:08, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Rituals and Rites
Sorry about the multiple edits.

The 'Hunt', while not capitalized in the text is in Demihuman Deities, p. 15 in the first sentence of of the first paragraph under Holy Days/Ceremonies.

"The customary worship to the Dark Maiden is a hunt, followed by a feast and dancing, and a Circle of Song..."

Maybe it could be organized better since a Hunt is typically tied to a feast and a Circle of Song, but I wanted to draw attention that a Circle of Song and a hunt are sort of separate things.

I suppose it could be something like Customary worship service LadySilverhair (talk) 17:47, October 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hunt
 * Feast
 * Circle of Song


 * First, please don't forget to sign your posts with four tildes ( ~ ) so we know where one comment ends and the next one begins, and some indication of chronological order. Second, you might want to peruse the Forgotten Realms Wiki:3 Sentence Rule (which is more of a guideline than a rule) and keep that in mind when deciding to make something a wikilink or not. For example, if you don't think that more than 3 sentences can be written about Eilistraee's version of a celebratory hunt, then it's probably best to leave it unlinked and explain how the hunt works in this article, rather than making a separate article. Thanks for all your contributions to this topic. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 16:51, October 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * okay - thanks! LadySilverhair (talk) 17:47, October 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, not being capitalised and not in itself special, this hunt is not really a special kind of hunt, just a generic kind of hunt. Maybe they even just go fishing? :) A discussion of the regular hunt would be best in a discussion of everyday practices and rites. For example, you could write it out like "It was customary among the faithful to worship Eilistraee through a hunt, followed by a feast with dancing, and ending in a Circle of Song, which was..." The High Hunt meanwhile is a distinct, special hunting ritual, so it could have any article on its own.
 * You could consider splitting the article into two (especially since it will get really long): one for Eilistraee as a person and character, and another for her followers as an organization. For example, see Mystra, and Ilmater and Church of Ilmater. They show good ways to to arrange this kind of information. — BadCatMan (talk) 04:30, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Confirmation that Eilistraee (and Vhaeraun too) is alive Post-Sundering
Eilistraee is alive post Sundering.

In Ed Greenwood's upcoming novel, Spellstorm, it is revealed that:

SPOILER

[...]Twas no easy thing, being the goddess of magic. A different deity than the rest, in a world so steeped in the Art, a divinity that had to care more for mortals, or embrace utter tyranny. And at the same time share the Weave - the Weave that was Mystra, as well as being so much more - with other deities, or what remained of them, like Eilistraee[...]

SPOILER

So, I've asked Ed Greenwood some questions about this:

SPOILER

1)Q: Does that thought (the passage about Mystra sharing the Weave with Eilistraee) refer to the present time? A: Yes, that refers to the present time.

2)Q: Are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun separated again? A: Yes, separate again.

3)Q: Did she manage to survive to the events in LP like some speculated (in a fashion similar to how Mystra did, for example) and emerge again after the Sundering (or has the Sundering simply brought her back)? A: Mortals know only of a reappearance, post-Sundering; details to be revealed, perhaps, in the fullness of time (this now 100% confirms that Eilistraee is alive in the present time).

4)Q: Also, in what condition is Eilistraee now, and what are she and her followers doing (and -since I'd like to edit the FR wiki page about her- is she now a demipower, or retained her status of lesser power)? A: Current condition? Unknown to mortals (including power level/ranking); sorry.

5)Q: Finally, where is Qilué's soul currently (since we know that the Cescent Blade couldn't destroy souls anymore, given that Cavatina survived it). A: As for the soul you mention: also unknown. My bet would be on "a voice in the Weave" (there may or may not be more on this status, if not that particular soul, in future fiction, but it's too early to say for certain).

QuestionsAnswers

SPOILER

This pretty much confirms that Eilistraee is alive and that mortals know of her reappearence, but we don't know about her current power/ranking (but we know that she is Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden again, and no longer Eilistraee, the Masked Lady). My question is, were I to edit the page according to this news, what should I put instead of dead power?

--Tsammarco (talk) 21:01, April 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well researched Tsammarco, though Ed is still keeping his cards close to his chest it seems. At most we can say she seems to have reappeared but as to her status/condition we don't know much else....she may not even be a god anymore (some have speculated Archfey or an aspect of mystra). Feel free to add these notes on her page if want, but remember to use the Candelekeep forum Template to reference if you do and avoid too much speculation ;) I'd leave the dead power category for now, at least until we know if her godly powers have returned too.--Eli the Tanner (talk) 22:36, April 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, Ed is holding his cards close to his chest, but Eilistraee has definitely reappeared. The way the quote from Spellstorm is phrased suggests that she is a deity, albeit very diminished in power. Archfey I could see, but aspect of Mystra I really can't, otherwise she wouldn't have been referred as other deities with whom Mystra is sharing the Weave. Idk about Dead power, I've put ranking currently unknown, but alive post-Sundering--Tsammarco (talk) 22:53, April 16, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, Ed is holding his cards close to his chest, but Eilistraee has definitely reappeared. The way the quote from Spellstorm is phrased suggests that she is a deity, albeit very diminished in power. Archfey I could see, but aspect of Mystra I really can't, otherwise she wouldn't have been referred as other deities with whom Mystra is sharing the Weave. Idk about Dead power, I've put ranking currently unknown, but alive post-Sundering--Tsammarco (talk) 22:53, April 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Here's Ed's confirmation and clarification on Eilistraee's status implied in Spellstorm: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322"Hi again, all. Irennan, heeeere's Ed:
 * Here's Ed's confirmation and clarification on Eilistraee's status implied in Spellstorm: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322"Hi again, all. Irennan, heeeere's Ed:

Communications being what they are in the Realms, with caravans bringing news and gossip and inevitable distortions as things get told and retold, most mortals can't be certain of much; they always have to trust (or not trust) retellings from afar. However, the word spreading about the return of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun comes from excited reports of mortal worshippers personally meeting MANIFESTATIONS and AVATARS of the deities; i.e. yes, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are both "back." Now, as to whether they'll appear face to face with a given mortal in a given location in the Realms, that's a far different matter. The gods in general seem more "distant" post-Sundering, more "heard from" than "personally seen."

And there you have it. The Word of Ed, so to speak. [:)] love, THO"

I've tried to edit the page, but I must have done something wrong, since the reference section is messed up and I don't know how to fix it. My sincere apologies.--Tsammarco (talk) 16:55, August 25, 2015 (UTC)

Plagiarized passages
I changed all the plagiarized passages that I could think of. Let me know if anything else needs to be changed. --Tsammarco (talk) 14:14, June 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * Will do, thanks. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:31, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

I kind of liked the passage quoted from Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet, does including it go against the wiki's policy? Perhaps we could add as described in Evermeet: Island of Elves, by Elaine Cunningham before the quote.--Tsammarco (talk) 16:28, June 16, 2015 (UTC)

Renovation discussion

 * Moved from User talk:BadCatMan.

Sorry about the late answer. Should I create a new page regarding the Church of Eilistraee (including rituals and artifacts/magic)? Should that page include the info about the various temples and shrines?

Also, my apologies about the issue concerning multiple edits. --Tsammarco (talk) 01:09, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Re: I will make the Church of Eilistraee page as soon as possible. So, should the artifacts remain on Eilistraee's page (with links and brief descriptions on the Church page)? Are there any templates that I should use to create the church page? --Tsammarco (talk) 03:20, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Re: I've created the page and it is mostly complete. It's not as rich as Ilmater's church's, but I'm mostly ok with how it turned out. I will try to keep it updated with any lore or info that will be released concerning Eilistraee's return and activities post-Sundering. --Tsammarco (talk) 13:50, June 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, I expect there'll be much more to say about Eilistraee and her faithful. :) Okay, thanks and well done, it's an impressive lot of work. I'll begin to go over both pages to check the lore, wiki format, and so on, and let you know if I have any concerns. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:53, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Will rewrite borrowed passages. --Tsammarco (talk) 12:59, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Done. Let me know if there's anything else that I need to change--Tsammarco (talk) 14:13, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! — BadCatMan (talk) 09:44, June 9, 2015 (UTC)

Regarding your last edit, I quite liked the passage quoted from Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet, does including it go against the wiki's policy? Perhaps we could add something like: as described in Evermeet: Island of Elves, by Elaine Cunningham before the passage.--Tsammarco (talk) 11:24, June 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * I did too, and I struggled to rewrite it in any way as good as Elaine Cunningham. I realised it was intended to be a quote, but felt I should just rewrite all the remaining copied text. But small bits of quoted material are acceptable for illustration purposes, if clearly indicated and attributed. We can add it back as a formal quote, using the Quote template, and attribute it to Araushnee with a reference. I can do that when next I can work on the page. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:32, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

I edited the page, adding the quote and referencing Araushnee as author: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee#Personality --Tsammarco (talk) 11:58, June 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I removed the mention of the book, in order to maintain an in-universe POV within the main text of the article. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:09, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the teachings section on Eilistraee's page, it basically consists of passages taken from Demihuman Deities, organized in a different order. I've reorganized it further, putting each part under the corresponding category (for example, On Drow, On Strangers and so on: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee#Teachings), but I'd like to know if I must rewrite the passages altogether, or if they are acceptable for the dogma (since other deities' pages directly quote text too). If I must, I'll do it in the evening--Tsammarco (talk) 16:25, June 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Feel free to rewrite what you feel cleaves too closely to the sourcebook. Otherwise, I'll check them myself when I get to them.


 * Some of the dogma passages in the sourcebooks have quotation marks, making them appear to be standard prayers or commandments. Some are what novices are specifically charged with doing. Those are fair to quote, though they tend to be too extensive and not particularly interesting. As for Eilistraee, only the "rightful place" message needs to be quoted. The rest is plain text to be rewritten.


 * I'm interested in seeing her focus on food. I played a drow chef-turned-paladin of Eilistraee once. :) Her bastard sword was a katana, allegedly a meat cleaver. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:51, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

I've modified the text, rewriting copied passages http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee#Teachings And yes, I too felt that Eilistraee's focus on food warranted her words on it their own pargraph. Also, cool character concept :D --Tsammarco (talk) 12:14, June 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks.
 * Seeing the strong focus on food in her dogma, I just ran with that. I reasoned that the drow food industry, from butchery to selling to preparation, was a hotbed of Eilistraeen worship, thanks to their service to others and being trusted not to poison anyone lest they soon be found out. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:30, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

On the dogma section of the Eilistraee page, I think that it is important that it is included, as it explains Eilistraee's ideals. I'll copy the text from the Church page and edit the latter with a link to the appropriate section of the Eilistraee page.--Tsammarco (talk) 14:48, July 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Previously, I encouraged splitting the mega-huge Eilistraee page into two: one about the goddess as a character, another about the organisation of her believers. Partly, that was to reduce the length, and partly as a matter of organisation and consistency.
 * Dogma, I feel, is a matter for the church page, what the worshippers are encouraged to do and believe. There's a subtle difference between what Eilistraee believes and her ideals, and what her worshippers believe and their ideals. They're drow, they'd sneak in their own views. Several gods have heresies that hold markedly different beliefs to their mainstream faiths, yet which are sometimes supported by their deities. It would be erroneous to suggest the mainstream dogma applies to these heresies. I'm not aware that Eilistraee has any (though I'm creating an offshoot faith of pterodactyl-riding "Eilish"-worshippers in my own game, based on the early Ilythiiri experiments), but surely the Masked Lady espouses slightly different ideals to the traditional Eilistraeen faith. Eilistraee might be a crappy cook, but know it's a good thing for her followers to try.
 * It was also for consistency with our other recent, more developed deity pages – Ilmater, Mystra, and Waukeen – for whom we left dogma as a matter for church pages rather than deity pages. (There's another example: Mystra's dogma has survived three Mystras, and we know Midnight had very different views to what she had to espouse, so it's clearly a church topic more than a deity topic.)
 * And yes, length. It was redundant to have it twice in just the same form. I'm trying to get these unwieldy beasts of articles nice and tidy, and cutting back on duplication is vital.
 * Now, it would be fair to explain Eilistraee's ideals, but in the Personality section, framed as what she herself believes, not what her followers are encouraged to believe and do. But I think her views are already well covered. — BadCatMan (talk) 15:27, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Eilistraee doesn't have any heresies, and the Masked Lady was a very brief parenthesis of her career as divinity, so I think that her teachings coincide with her ideals, but I understand the reason behind your edit. I will swap the changes around, and leave the description of the teachings of the goddess on the church page, and a link on the Eilistraee's page.--Tsammarco (talk) 15:36, July 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks! — BadCatMan (talk) 06:48, July 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * Regarding your latest edit, wouldn't the paragraph about Eilistraee sending visions and dreams to all drow fit better under Manifestations or Activities?--Tsammarco (talk) 13:50, August 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * That was kind of left behind after moving everything else. I looked at it, but Powers seemed good enough. I've now moved it to Activities.


 * I'm making a concerted effort to polish, structure, and tidying the Eilistraee and Church of Eilistraee pages, and cleaving some of the excess lore off into separate articles (like The Dark Dancer), so I'll be adding further references and tweaks to them. I hope we can make a Featured Article out of one them eventually. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:13, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

That would be nice. I feel sorry for giving you quite a lot of work to do with the phrasing of some passages or, at times, errors in the use of verb tenses. If you want split the lore in the church page further, let me know how I can be of help--Tsammarco (talk) 19:44, August 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * No worries, it's what I do normally around here and Eilistraee is such a popular topic it's good for the FRW to show a very nice article on her. You weren't the first to work on the article; Eilistraee fans seem to be very verbose. Thanks very much for splitting off the lore into separate pages. The Church page really only needs a short list of important, representative temples, with no more than a single line for summary, I feel. The same goes for the orders. I'll be working on some more of these myself (especially since my paladin-chef is getting some action again). — BadCatMan (talk) 02:28, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

About the verbosity, speaking from my personal experience, I feel that Eilistraee is a truly beautiful character and wish to make her justice, but as a non-native speaker, finding the right words and expressing them in a coincise manner can be hard, hence the verbosity.

I've created pages for the Sword Dancer of Eilistraee and Silverhair Knight, added the protectors of the Song to the order list and summarized the info regarding the first two orders on the main church page. I was thinkign about creating a Protectors of the Song page, but there isn't much info on them (and their description is also included in the Promenade page)--Tsammarco (talk) 01:06, August 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, I understand the non-native speaker issue. That's just a common minor problem of over-phrasing, using three words where one would do, for example (though editing these articles after the fact, I don't know who wrote what, but you seem to write rather well). What I meant by verbosity is the repetition of information, extrapolation of concepts not actually discussed in the sources, and packing in a lot of extra lore like temples and orders not really relevant to the main topic. That all comes from a lot of different people adding to the article. Eilistraee has a lot of passionate fans, almost independent of the setting, and they want to talk about her. (For me, she's just an interesting deity choice for a character. I haven't even read her novels.) But the sheer size actually discourages people from reading and working on it, hence why it's important to prune these back. So if I remove something, you don't have to add it back in.


 * On the issue of extrapolation, I'd like to discuss these lines (as they currently stand in the Eilistraee page): "Eilistraee was convinced that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow. She was comforted that some worked their way free of the Spider Queen's web." and "She tirelessly fought to make her dream of drow and all races living in harmony a reality, standing up to tyranny (especially her mother's) that oppressed people or poisoned their hearts with hatred and prejudice, never giving up despite all the odds." While I don't doubt it, nothing in the main cited source actually discusses these points specifically. Eilistraee specifically wants the drow redeemed and back on the surface; we don't know what she thinks of orcs or tieflings (I played a tiefling interested in Eilistraee). So I find these sentences very speculative, extrapolating views from what we do know, but not really specific to her. They could apply to many good deities, but not necessarily Eilistraee. My inclination is to remove them, frankly, or cut them back to being specific to the drow, to better reflect what was discussed in the sources.


 * Don't be shy about making new articles. As long as there's a little information about a topic (more than three sentences as a rule-of-thumb), it warrants a new article. That can reduce the length of an existing article, it grows the wiki, and helps readers find different information via categories. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:59, August 5, 2015 (UTC)

About "Eilistraee was convinced that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow. She was comforted that some worked their way free of the Spider Queen's web." Demihuman deities says that "Eilistraee is forging her own path, one that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and the free form expression of all that entails", so I think that it is pretty accurate. The part about Eilistraee being comforted is in Faiths and Pantheons.

"She tirelessly fought to make her dream of drow and all races living in harmony a reality, standing up to tyranny (especially her mother's) that oppressed people or poisoned their hearts with hatred and prejudice, never giving up despite all the odds" is extrapolation. It could be removed, if needed.


 * Okay, great, thanks. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:24, August 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think the quoted line from DD is about accepting people who follow her personally. I've added a new line to reflect that, rephrased the opening to introduce it as extrapolation, and tagged it as speculation. "Convinced and fought so that" was an awkward construction, so I changed them to "believed". Here's what I've come up with:

Though focused on the drow, Eilistraee accepted folk of all races who danced along her path, who delighted in life and in the free-form expression of life in all its forms. Thus, by extension, she believed all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow.
 * What do you think? — BadCatMan (talk) 11:43, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

The line talks about Eilistraee forging her own path, so I guess that she actively works to see drow and all races living peacefully together. In Demihuman Deities, Her teachings are also about promoting harmony not only between drow and surface dwellers, but among all races. Considering these two points, I think that the part about her fighting so that all races could be together could be sourced. Would this be fine:

Though focused on the drow, Eilistraee accepted folk of all races who danced along her path, who delighted in life and in the free-form expression of life in all its forms. She fought so that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow. --Tsammarco (talk) 12:03, August 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll take it. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:46, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Regarding your last edit and the removal of  She fought combining the grace and agility of her dance with the lethality of her fencing skills. I wrote that because she has the spring attack/whirlwing attack feat chain, which reflects an agile and mobile fighting style, dancing in and out weapon reach to strike and avoid to be hit. How could this be better described?--Tsammarco (talk) 12:13, August 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * I didn't remove it or change it, I only shifted it to Abilities. The 3e stats applied to the deity as a whole, not just her avatar, so I moved the information to a more general discussion of her skills and abilities that I'd constructed. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:22, August 8, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind then. I didn't see that--Tsammarco (talk) 12:39, August 8, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'll write the summary for the introductive paragraph in the evening. How many lines should it be?

There are some nice artworks of Eilistraee, but many of them are NSFW and, for some reason, 3D rather thank just drawings. Of the SFW ones, I like these: http://isriana.deviantart.com/art/Eilistraee-165383419, http://gold-seven.deviantart.com/art/The-Lady-in-the-Forest-15480981, the one of Eilistraee and Corellon (already included). I also like http://isriana.deviantart.com/art/The-Dark-Maiden-55652827 (if it is SFW), but the chin is a bit weird in that pic. The official artworks are all already included. There's the Dark Seldarine picture from faiths and pantheons, that includes Eilistraee and all the other drow gods--Tsammarco (talk) 13:32, August 10, 2015 (UTC)

Currently, I can't think about anything to add. I will update the page with any info that may be released in the future (Ed Greenwood's answers and, probably, the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide sourcebook that will come out in November).--Tsammarco (talk) 13:43, August 10, 2015 (UTC)

Would this be any good as a summary? As you said, I tried to briefly cover Eilistraee's personality, history and goals.

Eilistraee was the daughter of Araushnee and Corellon Larethian, a free spirited and kind hearted goddess, with a fiery streak in her personality. After Araushnee's treachery almost made her slay her own father when a host of evil deities assaulted Arvandor, even as she was cleared from any guilt, Eilistraee chose to share her mother's exile. She made that choice because she knew that the drow would need her light in the time to come. After the descent of the drow, Eilistraee tried her best to be a mother goddess to her people and bring them the hope of a new life: she fought to lead them back to the lands of light, helping them to flourish and prosper in harmony with all other races, free from Lolth's tyranny. Hers was an uphill battle, as her power was little and she was opposed by the gods of the Dark Seldarine. However, despite having to overcome many hardships and setbacks, Eilistraee never gave up fighting for her people.

In the 1370s DR, her conflict with Lolth over the souls of the drow race ultimately led to the goddess' defeat and disappearance. It lasted for about a century, until the Sundering (circa 1480s DR), when Eilistraee returned to life and to her followers. --Tsammarco (talk) 16:22, August 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * I dunno, SFW pictures don't seem faithful to the character. ;) Well, we're spoiled for choice for extra pictures of Eilistraee, and I don't want to single out any one fan-artist if they don't volunteer. I could make a call in the forums if necessary. If we do take fan art, I'd prefer pics that illustrate more than just, well, a dancing naked drow with a sword. The one of Eilistraee and Corellon is good, as it illustrates the story.


 * Thanks, that's all good. Feel free to add it. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:40, August 11, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I find the picture with Eilistraee and Corellon to be really good. On the same line of thought, I also like http://gold-seven.deviantart.com/art/The-Lady-in-the-Forest-15480981 (same artist, as far as I can tell), as it reflects her appearing to drow who are lost or in need of guidance, as the one in the picture seems to be.

I've added the overview to the introductive paragraph.--Tsammarco (talk) 14:19, August 11, 2015 (UTC)

I've added some clarification and additional info to the events of the War of the Spider Queen timeline.

Since you had thought about it, I also added Eilistraee to the Forum:Nominated Feature Articles page.--Tsammarco (talk) 19:46, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

The art of Eilistraee and Corellon is useful in breaking the wall of text that is the history section, and is very pertinent to that section. I think that it added more value to the aesthetics of the article in its original place, than it does in the gallery.--Tsammarco (talk) 17:28, June 22, 2018 (UTC)