User talk:Lhynard

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

Schael Corwin
Would you mind restoring the page? I rewrote it prior to deletion. It's an actual character from the latest Baldur's Gate game. --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 18:04, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh. Thank you! --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 18:04, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * :) Don't worry. It was only deleted for about 20 seconds. You have to delete a page to clear its history, and there was no point keeping the vandal's work even in the history. ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:07, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * Gah! And now you edited this page while I was editing it. :) ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:07, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Languages
Hi Lhynard.

After revising my Gur article and tackling the Utter East, I ended up tackling some languages, but found I've jumped forward on your planned work. I hope my work on Halardrim and Gurri, and later Waelan and Maran suit what you had planned.

Just curious: in your research, have you come across any mortal languages based on Celestial or variants or details of Celestial itself? I have an aasimar player who loves using it. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:28, April 11, 2016 (UTC)


 * Cool; I'm glad to have some help. I might tweak things, but for the most part, you are saving me time, so I cannot complain! Thanks!


 * As far as Celestial, all I've got on that one so far is that the Mulhorandi language uses its alphabet. I feel like I've read about another connection somewhere, which hopefully I wrote down, but if so, it would be an obscure reference within RoF, and I have those notes at home. I'll have to check later.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 16:13, April 11, 2016 (UTC)


 * Also, you just motivated me to set up the framework for the Imaskari languages family. ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:35, April 11, 2016 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks. I'll try to do some others at some point. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:16, April 12, 2016 (UTC)

Hi Lhynard.

Helping you from the other side, I've started work on the eastern languages, beginning with Koryo language and the root Han language. I plan to develop Kozakuran language and Wa-an before I piece together the others.

The KT languages aren't as organized as those presented in "Speaking in Tongues", so I've assumed the existence of a Han languages group and Kara-Turan languages family for organization purposes. "Speaking in Tongues" does mention that the Kara-Turan languages are of a different but unnamed language family. So I think that's a fair assumption, but what are your thoughts?

What would you recommend for a language navigation template. The KT languages are fewer and simpler, so maybe a broad Kara-Turan languages would be appropriate?


 * I'm in favor of all you've done so far. Thanks!


 * I think it makes sense to have a Kara-Turan languages navbox. It seems like we have the following hierarchy at the moment:
 * Kara-Turan languages
 * Han languages
 * Koryo • Kozakuran • Wa-an
 * "Chinese-inspired" language group
 * Trade Tongue • High Shou • T'u Lung


 * Where do these belong: Issacortae • Pazruki? I don't know the real-world inspiration for the Ama Basin.


 * Did the Tayanuchi speak their own language?


 * Also, what do they speak in Ra-Khati? If Ra-Khati is based on Tibet, its language probably belongs in the same group as whichever group the "Chinese-inspired" languages fall. That is, in the real world, the Tibet and Burmese languages are in one subgroup, and the Chinese languages are in another, but both subgroups fall under the same language family. Japanese falls into a different family altogether. Obviously we can't and shouldn't always assume exact correlations, especially without sources to confirm, but it can help think about things.


 * As a side note, is Wanese a nationality or an ethnicity or both?


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:46, April 30, 2016 (UTC)


 * I've been looking at the The Horde, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, Ronin Challenge, "Speaking in Tongues", and the article in Dragon magazine 315 for eastern language details. Most languages aren't linked and there are few language groups, leading to a lot of apparent language isolates. What links there are run counter to the real world: Japanese and Korean are practically language isolates, with larger language groups/families being debated, but Wa-an, Kozakura, and Koryoan are the most closely linked in Kara-Tur. To confuse matters, spellings for languages and cultures vary a lot both within and between sources, and language names are most often the same as culture/tribe/nationality names. I'm assuming that Kara-Tur setting sources take precedence over Horde setting sources on Kara-Tur-detailed matters. There's a lot of discussion on language issues and communication difficulties, without actually organizing them.


 * Issacortae/Isacorte, Pazruki/Pazruk, and Wu Haltai all lay in the Northern Wastes/Ama Basin area. Languages discussion in the KTCS suggests they are distinct languages, each with tribal dialects. There are no known links between them, but given geography and cultural links, I suspect they should be. The Horde says they're only "vaguely related" to Eastern Imaskari; I'm not sure that's enough to put them in an Imaskari languages group, as they may only be influenced by it.


 * Similarly, The Horde puts Fankiang and Khaghun/Kashgun/Kahghun/etc. in the Eastern Imaskari group. In the KT sources, these are two of three major tribes of the Plain of Horses; the other is Tsu-tsu. Ronin Challenge says those tribes speak Chuchian, with each major tribe having a dialect that smaller tribes follow. So, I take it that Chuchian is a language in the Eastern Imaskari group, with Fankiang, Khaghun/Kashgun/Kahghun/etc., and presumably Tsu-tsu as dialects within that.


 * The Tayanuchi/Tayanulchi are a tribe of the Issacortae/Isacorte, so they would most likely speak the same language, or a dialect of it.


 * The Horde says the peoples of Ra-Khati and Khazari speak a version of Shou Chiang, as does Shou Lung. That book says Shou Chiang is the parent language group, while KT sources refer to Shou Chiang as only the written form. I think this is like the Latin language and Latin alphabet.


 * Wanese I presume is a nationality and an ethnicity. The eastern lore doesn't have specific ethnicities like Chondathan or such, but has clear racial descriptions. So I think you and I have been taking the nationality/tribal details as ethnicities, as you did for Tabotan.


 * So I have the following Kara-Turan languages tree:
 * Eastern Imaskari language group:
 * Chuchian (Fankiang, Khaghun/Kashghun, and Tsu-tsu dialects)
 * The others previously known
 * Han languages group:
 * Han language
 * Koryo
 * Wa-an
 * Kozakuran
 * Shou Chiang language group:
 * Shou Lung/Kao te Shou (with High Shou dialect and regional dialects)
 * T'u Lung (and local dialects)
 * Khazari
 * Ra-Khati
 * Amaese (Northern Wastes/Ama Basin; vaguely related to Eastern Imaskari)
 * Issacortae/Isacorte
 * Pazruki/Pazruk (dialects Tchaltin-Pazruk and Erla-Pazruk and others)
 * Wu-haltai (I assume)
 * And a lot of language isolates, those I can't connect to others, not even to each other (though some are influenced by Shou and others), though one may assume connections between similar cultures in one land:
 * Malatra/The jungle lands:
 * Kuong (comes from "a different linguistic stock" (KTCS) to the others of Malatra, and is distinct from all other KT languages)
 * Laothan (with words borrowed from T'u Lung)
 * Purang (with dialects)
 * Shou Mountains:
 * Lidahan (with dialects for each valley; extensive vocabulary in Ronin Challenge – but it's actually Indonesian)
 * Tabot:
 * Tabotan
 * Kara-Tur:
 * Trade Tongue


 * How does that look to you? — BadCatMan (talk) 01:51, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Looks great. You are far more an expert on this part of the world than I.


 * Just one more thing to consider: Tom Costa's theory was that Chuchian was simply the Shou term for Imaskari. See here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20231#470450 (Search for "Ronin Challenge".)


 * Is it clear to which language(s) Trade Tongue was most closely related?


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 03:27, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Not really an expert, except on some areas that interested me. Otherwise, I'm frantically researching the details. :)


 * Hmm. Costa's theory is valid, but has about the same basis as mine, albeit with more authority. :) Ronin Challenge says "Chuchian is spoken throughout the Plain of Horses. Every major tribe has its own dialect." Which allows that Chuchian could be a more widely known language, but I think the description intends that Chuchian is specific to the Plain of Horses, e.g., "Chuchian vocabulary is very precise. The Plainsmen rarely use such general terms..." It may depend on close the other Eastern Imaskari languages are.


 * Nope, Trade Tongue has no given basis or origin. I'd guess it's the dominant Shou, but that's just supposition. My article for that is complete.


 * Uh, wait up, I found the Language Chart in The Horde, it goes into more detail about language groups there. It puts Pazruki and Issacortae into "Amaese", and I presume Wu-Haltai should follow. I've updated my above list. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:53, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * — BadCatMan (talk) 03:53, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Do you mean those so-called "language card" things? I know they exist, but I've never seen them, as the free version of The Horde from Wizards did not include them. ~ Lhynard (talk) 09:24, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Huh. The one I downloaded from here, both today and years back, has the DM Cards.


 * Anyway, Kara-Turan languages is done. Feel free to adjust it to suit your style — BadCatMan (talk) 09:37, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure where I got my copy then, but that problem's been fixed. What a cool chart! Thanks for the proper link.


 * I like Kara-Turan languages so far. I also just updated Language families.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 09:51, May 1, 2016 (UTC)

Meant The NWN Expansions
I realized I meant the Neverwinter Nights expansions (Hordes and Undrentide) are listed as non-canon but my question still stands. Why are those non-canon? They should be canon as the core game.


 * Yes, you are correct. See my reply to your other posts. ~ Lhynard (talk) 21:54, April 16, 2016 (UTC)

Another class cat without a plural "s"
I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the plural for Shukenja is Shukenja and not Shukenjas. Could you fix the class category for this as seen on the Hsi Yog page?Artemaz (talk) 19:34, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Are you sure it's not "shuGenja"? That class is already in the list. ~ Lhynard (talk) 19:39, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Both terms seem to be used on this wiki, and they are certainly the same thing. It's probably two different spellings. We need to decide on one for consistency. Policy says to take the spelling of the latest edition. It's "shuGenja" in 3e. Are there 4e or 5e variations? ~ Lhynard (talk) 19:43, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Hmm, all of my books are 2E ... so I'm not sure if "shukenja" is used in the later editions. Should I go ahead and change it to "shugenja" on the Hsi Yog page?Artemaz (talk) 20:37, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * I would, yes. ~ Lhynard (talk) 20:41, April 21, 2016 (UTC)

To clarify or maybe confuse matters, "shukenja" (with a k, plural "shukenja") is used in 1e and 2e (Oriental Adventures, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms) and "shugenja" (with a g, plural "shugenjas") is used in 3e (Oriental Adventures (3rd edition), Complete Divine). — BadCatMan (talk) 23:55, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'm curious about 4e and 5e, since we take a "newer sources trump" policy, yes?


 * It's not really that big of a thing; they are essentially pronounced the same way most likely. Gs and ks are both palatial mutes. It's just a voicing thing, for which perhaps High Shou does not really distinguish. :)


 * (The kenku/tengu thing is a far more annoying issue. :) ) ~ Lhynard (talk) 03:16, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, both, I've fixed up the plurals and categories. If it is a 2e character, use shukenja. It will fall under "Shukenja (2e) of N level", which is under "Shukenja (2e)", which is under "Shugenja". ~ Lhynard (talk) 03:46, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Edit: Corrected spelling, 04:06, April 22, 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with that approach: the k-spelling for the 1e/2e class, the g-spelling for the 3e class, with the latest title as the umbrella. But where did the 'u' plural come from? Japanese? Even Wikipedia for the Shugendō faith it's based on uses 'a'.


 * The class never made it to 4th edition, so no worries there, yet. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:53, April 22, 2016 (UTC)


 * It came from a typo on my part! :( I actually made the categories correctly. ~ Lhynard (talk) 04:06, April 22, 2016 (UTC)