Talk:Zespara Alather

Zespara is described as human, not as Illuskan human.

Yes, Races of Faerun p80 says "assume the following ethnicity." However, I don't see anything in The North saying she's from Mirabar... only that she's there now. If she was born in some other part of Faerun, RoF would have us assume something else instead of Illuskan.

So the assumptions should be up to individual DMs, based on their own games. I don't think we should make assumptions for the DM. The bottom line is that her "subrace" isn't canon. -- User:Wanderscribe


 * Thanks for getting back on this. BTW, remember to sign your posts with four tildes, ~. I added a sig for you.
 * Good point. I agree we can't assume that she didn't migrate from somewhere else. However, that table also says "If no ethnic group is specified or implied...", meaning that, in the absence of other evidence, she should default to Illuskan. On the other hand, some characters do get more evidence that could change their default ethnicity, and these broad categories ignore variations of settlement.
 * Personally, I agree with you and would rather not have these assumptions. It's too much effort to check every NPC. But lots of other characters have already had these racial assumptions made, and I'm not sure how we could find them all. I'll wait and see what other editors think. -- BadCatMan (talk) 09:48, December 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Meh, sorry about my snarky attitude. I was over my tiredness limit, and shouldn't have been typing in any public forum.  Thanks for not backhanding me. :D
 * I agree that it would be a pain to go through and correct all the posts for which the assumption has already been made, but... I don't see that justifying continuing to make the assumption. Unless we also include a note, any time RoF p80 is cited on an NPC, that the subrace is a default assumption based on the NPC's location.
 * My concern is that the wiki is used as a source, and if it says that she's Illuskan, then anybody writing future Realmslore (if they're not careful to look up each individual source for each individual NPC they use) may assume that everything on the wiki entry is fact established in earlier sources. Yea, that assumption would be pretty dangerous, but still.  No biggie, I guess, but readers/writers should be able to rely on the wiki to present canon, without creating/expanding/directing it by virtue of making assumptions.  Just my two cents. Wanderscribe (talk) 19:52, December 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * No problem, I've dealt with much snarkier. :)
 * It's a pretty minor thing in this case, and based on a published recommendation, so it's hardly a dangerous assumption. Besides, with the century-long jump, it's not like we're going to hear any more about Zespara or the others.
 * Anyway, let's wait a few days and see what some other editors think. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:06, December 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, first I was going to say... the source does not say she is Illuskan, but after looking at the 3rd edition Races of Faerûn, which trumps 2nd edition sourcebooks... personally, I would cite the Illuskan, but if another source contradicts this, "Although published FORGOTTEN REALMS game material has long included references to various human ethnic groups, the actual ethnic group of individual NPCs has rarely been identified. If no ethnic group is specified or implied for a particular character, assume the following ethnicity", then the Races book is trumped... my two cents :) Darkwynters (talk) 18:49, December 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's your call, of course. My quibble is just with the wiki formalizing that default assumption as fact for specific individuals, rather than sticking to what's specified in canon and leaving the assumptions up to individual DMs.  As you quoted, the ethnic identity of individuals is rarely specified in sources... I would add very rarely.  If we make these default assumptions for everyone who isn't assigned a specific subrace in the books, we end up with a very lopsided Realms... 99.9% of humans in the north will be Illuskan, and that isn't accurate.  Meh... it's not a huge deal, and I'm not beating my chest or QQing about it.  And of course, in 4e, subraces are probably specified more often and 99.9% of everyone detailed in previous books is totally irrelevant, so the whole thing is mostly moot.  Just the principle of the thing. :PWanderscribe (talk) 19:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)