User talk:Lhynard

__NEWSECTIONLINK__ Note: Lhynard is traveling for business/pleasure. He will not have access to Internet for the next three days. After that, he will have access to Internet but will not be updating his projects and will be slower to respond than he normally is.

Schael Corwin
Would you mind restoring the page? I rewrote it prior to deletion. It's an actual character from the latest Baldur's Gate game. --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 18:04, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh. Thank you! --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 18:04, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * :) Don't worry. It was only deleted for about 20 seconds. You have to delete a page to clear its history, and there was no point keeping the vandal's work even in the history. ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:07, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * Gah! And now you edited this page while I was editing it. :) ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:07, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Languages
Hi Lhynard.

After revising my Gur article and tackling the Utter East, I ended up tackling some languages, but found I've jumped forward on your planned work. I hope my work on Halardrim and Gurri, and later Waelan and Maran suit what you had planned.

Just curious: in your research, have you come across any mortal languages based on Celestial or variants or details of Celestial itself? I have an aasimar player who loves using it. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:28, April 11, 2016 (UTC)


 * Cool; I'm glad to have some help. I might tweak things, but for the most part, you are saving me time, so I cannot complain! Thanks!


 * As far as Celestial, all I've got on that one so far is that the Mulhorandi language uses its alphabet. I feel like I've read about another connection somewhere, which hopefully I wrote down, but if so, it would be an obscure reference within RoF, and I have those notes at home. I'll have to check later.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 16:13, April 11, 2016 (UTC)


 * Also, you just motivated me to set up the framework for the Imaskari languages family. ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:35, April 11, 2016 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks. I'll try to do some others at some point. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:16, April 12, 2016 (UTC)

Hi Lhynard.

Helping you from the other side, I've started work on the eastern languages, beginning with Koryo language and the root Han language. I plan to develop Kozakuran language and Wa-an before I piece together the others.

The KT languages aren't as organized as those presented in "Speaking in Tongues", so I've assumed the existence of a Han languages group and Kara-Turan languages family for organization purposes. "Speaking in Tongues" does mention that the Kara-Turan languages are of a different but unnamed language family. So I think that's a fair assumption, but what are your thoughts?

What would you recommend for a language navigation template. The KT languages are fewer and simpler, so maybe a broad Kara-Turan languages would be appropriate?


 * I'm in favor of all you've done so far. Thanks!


 * I think it makes sense to have a Kara-Turan languages navbox. It seems like we have the following hierarchy at the moment:
 * Kara-Turan languages
 * Han languages
 * Koryo • Kozakuran • Wa-an
 * "Chinese-inspired" language group
 * Trade Tongue • High Shou • T'u Lung


 * Where do these belong: Issacortae • Pazruki? I don't know the real-world inspiration for the Ama Basin.


 * Did the Tayanuchi speak their own language?


 * Also, what do they speak in Ra-Khati? If Ra-Khati is based on Tibet, its language probably belongs in the same group as whichever group the "Chinese-inspired" languages fall. That is, in the real world, the Tibet and Burmese languages are in one subgroup, and the Chinese languages are in another, but both subgroups fall under the same language family. Japanese falls into a different family altogether. Obviously we can't and shouldn't always assume exact correlations, especially without sources to confirm, but it can help think about things.


 * As a side note, is Wanese a nationality or an ethnicity or both?


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:46, April 30, 2016 (UTC)


 * I've been looking at the The Horde, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, Ronin Challenge, "Speaking in Tongues", and the article in Dragon magazine 315 for eastern language details. Most languages aren't linked and there are few language groups, leading to a lot of apparent language isolates. What links there are run counter to the real world: Japanese and Korean are practically language isolates, with larger language groups/families being debated, but Wa-an, Kozakura, and Koryoan are the most closely linked in Kara-Tur. To confuse matters, spellings for languages and cultures vary a lot both within and between sources, and language names are most often the same as culture/tribe/nationality names. I'm assuming that Kara-Tur setting sources take precedence over Horde setting sources on Kara-Tur-detailed matters. There's a lot of discussion on language issues and communication difficulties, without actually organizing them.


 * Issacortae/Isacorte, Pazruki/Pazruk, and Wu Haltai all lay in the Northern Wastes/Ama Basin area. Languages discussion in the KTCS suggests they are distinct languages, each with tribal dialects. There are no known links between them, but given geography and cultural links, I suspect they should be. The Horde says they're only "vaguely related" to Eastern Imaskari; I'm not sure that's enough to put them in an Imaskari languages group, as they may only be influenced by it.


 * Similarly, The Horde puts Fankiang and Khaghun/Kashgun/Kahghun/etc. in the Eastern Imaskari group. In the KT sources, these are two of three major tribes of the Plain of Horses; the other is Tsu-tsu. Ronin Challenge says those tribes speak Chuchian, with each major tribe having a dialect that smaller tribes follow. So, I take it that Chuchian is a language in the Eastern Imaskari group, with Fankiang, Khaghun/Kashgun/Kahghun/etc., and presumably Tsu-tsu as dialects within that.


 * The Tayanuchi/Tayanulchi are a tribe of the Issacortae/Isacorte, so they would most likely speak the same language, or a dialect of it.


 * The Horde says the peoples of Ra-Khati and Khazari speak a version of Shou Chiang, as does Shou Lung. That book says Shou Chiang is the parent language group, while KT sources refer to Shou Chiang as only the written form. I think this is like the Latin language and Latin alphabet.


 * Wanese I presume is a nationality and an ethnicity. The eastern lore doesn't have specific ethnicities like Chondathan or such, but has clear racial descriptions. So I think you and I have been taking the nationality/tribal details as ethnicities, as you did for Tabotan.


 * So I have the following Kara-Turan languages tree:
 * Eastern Imaskari language group:
 * Chuchian (Fankiang, Khaghun/Kashghun, and Tsu-tsu dialects)
 * The others previously known
 * Han languages group:
 * Han language
 * Koryo
 * Wa-an
 * Kozakuran
 * Shou Chiang language group:
 * Shou Lung/Kao te Shou (with High Shou dialect and regional dialects)
 * T'u Lung (and local dialects)
 * Khazari
 * Ra-Khati
 * Amaese (Northern Wastes/Ama Basin; vaguely related to Eastern Imaskari)
 * Issacortae/Isacorte
 * Pazruki/Pazruk (dialects Tchaltin-Pazruk and Erla-Pazruk and others)
 * Wu-haltai (I assume)
 * And a lot of language isolates, those I can't connect to others, not even to each other (though some are influenced by Shou and others), though one may assume connections between similar cultures in one land:
 * Malatra/The jungle lands:
 * Kuong (comes from "a different linguistic stock" (KTCS) to the others of Malatra, and is distinct from all other KT languages)
 * Laothan (with words borrowed from T'u Lung)
 * Purang (with dialects)
 * Shou Mountains:
 * Lidahan (with dialects for each valley; extensive vocabulary in Ronin Challenge – but it's actually Indonesian)
 * Tabot:
 * Tabotan
 * Kara-Tur:
 * Trade Tongue


 * How does that look to you? — BadCatMan (talk) 01:51, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Looks great. You are far more an expert on this part of the world than I.


 * Just one more thing to consider: Tom Costa's theory was that Chuchian was simply the Shou term for Imaskari. See here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20231#470450 (Search for "Ronin Challenge".)


 * Is it clear to which language(s) Trade Tongue was most closely related?


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 03:27, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Not really an expert, except on some areas that interested me. Otherwise, I'm frantically researching the details. :)


 * Hmm. Costa's theory is valid, but has about the same basis as mine, albeit with more authority. :) Ronin Challenge says "Chuchian is spoken throughout the Plain of Horses. Every major tribe has its own dialect." Which allows that Chuchian could be a more widely known language, but I think the description intends that Chuchian is specific to the Plain of Horses, e.g., "Chuchian vocabulary is very precise. The Plainsmen rarely use such general terms..." It may depend on close the other Eastern Imaskari languages are.


 * Nope, Trade Tongue has no given basis or origin. I'd guess it's the dominant Shou, but that's just supposition. My article for that is complete.


 * Uh, wait up, I found the Language Chart in The Horde, it goes into more detail about language groups there. It puts Pazruki and Issacortae into "Amaese", and I presume Wu-Haltai should follow. I've updated my above list. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:53, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * — BadCatMan (talk) 03:53, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Do you mean those so-called "language card" things? I know they exist, but I've never seen them, as the free version of The Horde from Wizards did not include them. ~ Lhynard (talk) 09:24, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Huh. The one I downloaded from here, both today and years back, has the DM Cards.


 * Anyway, Kara-Turan languages is done. Feel free to adjust it to suit your style — BadCatMan (talk) 09:37, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure where I got my copy then, but that problem's been fixed. What a cool chart! Thanks for the proper link.


 * I like Kara-Turan languages so far. I also just updated Language families.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 09:51, May 1, 2016 (UTC)

Hey, I've finished my Kara-Turan languages project. Please let me know if you see any issues, and feel free to adjust to suit your style for consistency. In particular, you might want to check out my arguments for Chuchian, the Plain of Horses brand of Imaskari. Let me know if you need any others worked up. I know next-to-nothing about Maztica and Zakhara though. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:48, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

Meant The NWN Expansions
I realized I meant the Neverwinter Nights expansions (Hordes and Undrentide) are listed as non-canon but my question still stands. Why are those non-canon? They should be canon as the core game.


 * Yes, you are correct. See my reply to your other posts. ~ Lhynard (talk) 21:54, April 16, 2016 (UTC)

Another class cat without a plural "s"
I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the plural for Shukenja is Shukenja and not Shukenjas. Could you fix the class category for this as seen on the Hsi Yog page?Artemaz (talk) 19:34, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Are you sure it's not "shuGenja"? That class is already in the list. ~ Lhynard (talk) 19:39, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Both terms seem to be used on this wiki, and they are certainly the same thing. It's probably two different spellings. We need to decide on one for consistency. Policy says to take the spelling of the latest edition. It's "shuGenja" in 3e. Are there 4e or 5e variations? ~ Lhynard (talk) 19:43, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Hmm, all of my books are 2E ... so I'm not sure if "shukenja" is used in the later editions. Should I go ahead and change it to "shugenja" on the Hsi Yog page?Artemaz (talk) 20:37, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * I would, yes. ~ Lhynard (talk) 20:41, April 21, 2016 (UTC)

To clarify or maybe confuse matters, "shukenja" (with a k, plural "shukenja") is used in 1e and 2e (Oriental Adventures, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms) and "shugenja" (with a g, plural "shugenjas") is used in 3e (Oriental Adventures (3rd edition), Complete Divine). — BadCatMan (talk) 23:55, April 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'm curious about 4e and 5e, since we take a "newer sources trump" policy, yes?


 * It's not really that big of a thing; they are essentially pronounced the same way most likely. Gs and ks are both palatial mutes. It's just a voicing thing, for which perhaps High Shou does not really distinguish. :)


 * (The kenku/tengu thing is a far more annoying issue. :) ) ~ Lhynard (talk) 03:16, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, both, I've fixed up the plurals and categories. If it is a 2e character, use shukenja. It will fall under "Shukenja (2e) of N level", which is under "Shukenja (2e)", which is under "Shugenja". ~ Lhynard (talk) 03:46, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Edit: Corrected spelling, 04:06, April 22, 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with that approach: the k-spelling for the 1e/2e class, the g-spelling for the 3e class, with the latest title as the umbrella. But where did the 'u' plural come from? Japanese? Even Wikipedia for the Shugendō faith it's based on uses 'a'.


 * The class never made it to 4th edition, so no worries there, yet. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:53, April 22, 2016 (UTC)


 * It came from a typo on my part! :( I actually made the categories correctly. ~ Lhynard (talk) 04:06, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Could you add kensaito the class list as well so it doesn't show up as kensais? Artemaz (talk) 12:44, May 3, 2016 (UTC)


 * done ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:30, May 3, 2016 (UTC)


 * Although this is another case where spelling has changed between editions. See Kensei. ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:32, May 3, 2016 (UTC)


 * Can you do the same for the Yakuza class? Artemaz (talk) 13:05, May 5, 2016 (UTC)


 * done ~ Lhynard (talk) 13:20, May 5, 2016 (UTC)

Spirit Folk
I no want polemic but please explain why Onoye can't be a spirit folk??? I also check the spirit folk page here and like what I read in "Oriental Adventures" she look a kind of them

(Unknown user 11 (talk) 17:10, May 1, 2016 (UTC))


 * Onoye is described in Hall of Heroes as "a lesser nature spirit", a "minor deity", and "immortal". Spirit folk are human–nature spirit crossbreeds. That is, if Onoye were to have a child with a human male, her child might be considered a spirit folk. Spirit folk are not immortal, nor are they at all lesser deities.


 * The spirit folk of Oriental Adventures are likewise descendents of humans and nature spirits.


 * Unfortunately, Onoye was intended to be a character in a novel that was never written, to the best of my knowledge, but because of my points above, it is safe to say that she is not one.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 20:56, May 1, 2016 (UTC)

Okay you explained well, question closed (Unknown user 11 (talk) 21:34, May 1, 2016 (UTC))

Thanks and Request for Tips
Thanks for your help, i really appreciate it. If you have some tips about good template and some fast tips about adding information let me know. thanks

ItalianDM (talk) 17:01, June 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. I'll do that. ~ Lhynard (talk) 23:07, June 9, 2016 (UTC)

RE: Shoon Project
Yeah, for me, the more obscure the lore the better. It means, of course, that it's even more important to source it - which I have a poor track record with (it's my writing process. It's flawed. I'm trying to improve.) Of course I want to help out as much as I can. -hashtalk 21:44, June 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * That Hazamir al Aktorral bit came from a reply to a letter to the editor! I'm impressed. ~ Lhynard (talk) 22:22, June 20, 2016 (UTC)

Spelljammer for elements
Hello! The articles for the elements now each contain a section for celestial bodies, where the elements are used in Spelljammer (Toril is a celestial earth body, the sun is a celestial fire body, etc.). I think that fits there, but would not warrant its own article. That's why I would really like to keep Category:Spelljammer there. Objections? Daranios (talk) 09:45, June 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * I was planning to delete the Category:Spelljammer altogether, because we don't categorize any other information on the wiki as belonging to or associated with a particular campaign setting. I like your additions to the element articles regarding celestial bodies and agree such additions do not belong elsewhere.


 * Maybe we should start a forum topi about Category:Spelljammer, Category:Ravenloft, Category:Al-Qadim, etc.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:24, June 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Sure, why not discuss it, I think Category:Al-Qadim and Category:Kara-Tur were emptied for good reasons. I like having Category:Spelljammer, etc., but I can also see reasons against them. If it was to be abolished, I guess it would make sense to put the elements into Category:Realmspace instead, though that would be slightly less fitting. Daranios (talk) 18:36, June 21, 2016 (UTC)

Marid page
Lol, I know I didn't create the Marid page. :) That page (and several others) existed as bare bones before I got to them. I added a little note on my user page saying that those articles in bold existed previously as stubs/drastically incomplete/etc. I have a separate section on the bottom similar to what you have listing other pages where I made significant improvements or additions ... but those pages in bold felt like something different.

Maybe I should call them "Pages I Adopted". :) Artemaz (talk) 13:21, June 21, 2016 (UTC)

4 sentences for small rivers
Hello! I wanted to ask/explain about the redirects for the Zakharan rivers: I think that usually we will not be able to write an article about them that beats the 3 Sentence Rule. They are short rivers shown on the map, and usually the source material will only say that city xy lies at its banks/mouth (usually only one). (Same goes for some bodies of water featured in Zakharan seas, while the Al-Adib River is a good example of an exception). That's why I made the river names redirects to the respective city xy. How do you think we should deal with this case of scarcity of information? Daranios (talk) 19:22, July 3, 2016 (UTC)


 * Hey,


 * As I understand it, the 3-sentence rule is a guideline, not a hard rule. (It says as much on the policy page. It is also meant to apply only to a topic which is closely linked to a broader topic, (such as the owner of an inn, about whom we no nothing else,) or the mother of a major character, (about whom we no nothing else,) or an event unique to a tiny village, or something that is clearly a sub-section of a larger thing, (such as one head of a two-headed NPC.)


 * Rivers, however, in my opinion, are not that way. They almost certainly have multiple settlements along them; they have a start and an end; they have a direction; they have a region. All of this information could be gained from a map only, and while it would be boring writing, that could all be expanded into three sentences, as there are at least four complete thoughts I listed above. They certainly do not belong to a city, because they extend far beyond any given city. (Now, a creek or a stream that flows into a river makes sense as a redirect to the river, because tributaries are essentially smaller parts of larger rivers.)


 * As an example of a minor river I made into an article, see River Tiryki, which only has one sentence, but has enough information for two. It has links to other related locations, and could have an image, if I dug one up. It's not a great image, but it serves as a jumping-off point. Also, it is possible that the river is actually mentioned in Ring of Winter or it is possible that the river will be mentioned again in the future. It doesn't hurt to have a short article, and in fact, because if someone comes along with new 5e info, there is already a place to put it in. It is not a tributary, so in my opinion, it does not make sense as a link anywhere else.


 * Here's a tiny town I did: Mbala. Again, it violates the rule by the letter, but it passes it by its intent. All the information comes solely from a map. It might not be a stub, i.e., it may be complete, but I left the stub tag in case something new comes up that I don't know about yet.


 * The idea of future expansion is key to the point of the "rule". Even the example given on the policy page of Star ruby demonstrates this. When created, it was only three sentences, but now it is quite a long article. Maybe that will happen with Mbala someday?


 * Anyhow, that's my take on the issue, and I hope you don't take my redirect deletion personally. You are a great editor! I only am changing these ones, because I have a broad "bodies of water" project going.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 19:56, July 3, 2016 (UTC)


 * P.S.: I removed some gulf redirects, too, but I might put those back in or change them, because they really are just sub-sections of a broader seas.


 * No offense taken, I've seen from the activities that you were going all around through bodies of water, and thanks for the praise! I think that, in contrast to others, most Zakharan rivers will in fact only have one settlement along its length (one documented in the sources, that is), and I have few hopes of more Al-Qadim material being published - but never say never. So I can agree to your point of view that we take what we can from the maps and have very short articles for these rivers. I might do some myself, but we will see what the time constraint brings. BTW, good to have Karl Waller now! Daranios (talk) 18:35, July 4, 2016 (UTC)