Talk:Demogorgon

Should references to Demogorgon in Greyhawk & Dragonlance be in the article although they are not strictly realms-related?


 * No. Be very careful about not including information that is specific to another campaign setting. Johnnyriot999 16:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Since it basically talks about the same creature, I see no reason why not. But, from what I remember, the pantheon of demons doesn't extend to Krynn. - Dark Ronin 6/30/08


 * Just because there's an article about X doesn't mean it should include everything about X. Why would you want to say something about "the same creature" that clearly crosses the line of not having to do with the campaign setting? It serves no purpose. Ville V. Kokko 10:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Because in this case X = X. Demogorgon is a multi-planar creature. Why would you create an entirely new creature from one already established? It is considered canon that all the planes are connected, especially to the Abyss. Basically, Demogorgon on Oerth is the same demon as on Toril, or Faerûn. Early Gygax fiction mentions Demogorgon specifically, and this description has carried through to numerous game worlds. Of course, each DM can do what they damn well please, that's the joy of roleplaying. - Dark Ronin 7/1/08


 * I was under the impression that Demogorgon, and other powerful beings like him, are simply aspects of their respective owners. Also, I don't think the Abyss spans between campaign settings. I don't think of Demogorgon in the FR Abyss as the same Demogorgon in Greyhawk's Abyss. Thus things that happen to Demogorgon in the FR campaign setting are separate from things that happen to him in places like Oerthspace and Krynnspace, etc.


 * Anyway, that's how I see things. TheBinder 21:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It doesn't match what I know that the Abyss wouldn't be the same for everyone. In fact, I having read The Planewalker's Handbook, you sound like a stereotypical clueless Prime who thinks the other planes are just somehow an extension to their own world that is at the centre of everything. :-P They're not, unless that has been changed along with all this silliness of making every little FR god's realm its own Outer Plane rather than having them situated on the alignment planes. Anyway, failing some such huge change, the Abyss exists independently, and so does Demogorgon.


 * As for X = X, that's not the point. If you're including Krynn lore about Demogorgon, you're simply going beyond the scope of this Wiki. It's necessary to speak of Demogorgon in relation to his own home plane besides of this particular campaign setting to define what he is, but not in relation to other Prime worlds. Ville V. Kokko 11:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In general, I agree with Ville Kokko. The outer planes are supposed to be common to all campaign settings.  In fact, since Spelljammer is an established canon facet of the Forgotten Realms, one might even argue that all campaign settings share the same Prime plane as well.  However, for some reason the game devs decided that the Forgotten Realms setting should have their own unique outer plane cosmology.  That really screws things up.  See the FRCS pages 256-259.  It's really hard to resolve these discrepancies, so you kind of have to hand-wave it away or not look too hard at it.  Or just assume that Faerûnian scholars still have a lot to learn, which is my interpretation of it ;-)  03:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It could simply be a question of two models that both fit the observed facts equally well. If planes are infinite, or at least large, and physically isolated from each other, and have sub-regions (layers, mostly) to which the same applies, then there's little or no difference between a whole plane with only one layer and the subregion of a plane.


 * Of course, since they're making this up rather than formulating and testing theories based on empirical observations, they could simply make up their damn minds. :-P Ville V. Kokko 10:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

With regard to the discussion above, the way I see it, it's simple in most cases. Is there something in an official Forgotten Realms publication that will back up your statement? If there is, it stays on the wiki, but only if you are prepared to list the source and page number so that everyone else can verify your statement's accuracy without trawling through nearly 30 years of publications. If there isn't, it can't stay. There are some grey areas, for sure. Spelljammer stuff, in my opinion, belongs on the Spelljammer Wiki. General D&D stuff is fine here, such as information on basic character classes and weapons, but stuff from a Greyhawk publication would not be.

In short, and this is just my opinion, since there is no clarification or consensus on this issue at Forgotten Realms Wiki:Scope of the project, if something exists on Oerth, and some canon Realms material states that Oerth is linked to Toril via planes X or Y, this is not enough to justify an article on it. If we did that, we'd probably end up with a huge scope for all kinds of articles from other campaign settings. Instead, I'd propose that only if something exists in the Realms source material does it belongs here. If Realms publication A says that kobolds are reptilian and have red eyes, and non-Realms publication B says that kobolds have green mohawks and carry surfboards, only the information from source A should be included, despite source B containing information on the same topic. Fw190a8 21:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)