Forgotten Realms Wiki talk:Canon

Hmmm...interesting. If any of you users out there are having trouble with figuring out if something is canon or not, you may want to see this page. One man saying that "canon is what you make of it" or something like that... well, doesn't quite make sense. My example: Klickjax the Tunafish Sandwich (not a real person, but a name you can give a character in an RPG) didn't really fight say... Klickjax-hater the Rat (if that rodent existed). Or, say Ukiuklayla, if that is your character's name (say it is) in a game of FR D&D is battling Kyu the Troll. You know this did not happen in the books, which is what Wizards of the Coast acknowledges as "canon." Agame of D&D is not canon. Maybe a pregenerated adventure, but not something a DM makes up. Cell4 01:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So if Canon is only stuff in print from WotC.....then is all that stuff on the WtoC web site just fluff? Or does web site stuff get to be cannon too.  When they make Dragon and Dungeon PDF's are they still cannon?  Do novels count as cannon, or only D&D game books?


 * Don't forget to sign your posts on talk pages with the four tildes ( ~ )! Thanks! Fluff and crunch are not the same thing as canon and non-canon. You can have canon or non-canon fluff, and canon or non-canon crunch too. The sourcebooks are canon. The novels are canon. The website is canon. Stuff like forum posts on the web site is not canon, even if the post was made by a FR author (like Eric L. Boyd). There are some canon forum posts at Candlekeep, found in such collections as "So Sayeth Ed". The computer games are not canon, although certain elements might be, but shouldn't be relied upon. Fw190a8 01:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * To add to that, it shouldn't matter if you make a mistake as to whether your source is canon, because in an ideal world, all statements on the wiki are sourced. See House Dlardrageth for a "well-sourced" article. If someone else notices that a non-canon source has been used, they'll come along and mark it as such. That's the advantage of a wiki! The worst thing you could do (beyond totally vandalizing the place) is making a controversial or non-canonical statement with no reference! Fw190a8 01:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, is there an actual source that explicitly states that video games are not canon? "Any published source relating to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting" is not limited to sales in paper form, unless stated otherwise. Thanks. Antinate 13:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note that there are published novels based on the Baldurs Gate series. They contradict parts of the  video games.  So now we have conflict, and we must decide which one is official.  I'd say preference should generally be given to novels.  Normally when we are presented with conflicting facts, we only keep the one that is most accurate.  However, I think it would be a real shame to lose all the articles we have on the Baldur's Gate series, even though they are not canon.  So I think keeping the articles and listing them as "non canon" is a good idea.  15:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's interesting, but I have never actually seen anything from Wizards of the Coast that explicitly states "video games are not canon". This might exist somewhere, I'm really not sure. It's one of those things that is generally accepted by Realms fans though, for sure. Perhaps the better question might be: "are video games considered canon on this wiki?" and the answer to that is "no!" Some aspects of the games are canon, for sure. In Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, the player visits Athkatla. To suggest that Athkatla is non-canon would be silly. However, other aspects are more murky. For example, each player has a slightly different experience in the game as they play through it. Suppose one player goes to location X, then location Y, but another player does this in the opposite order. These two series of events cannot both be canon! There is an interesting discussion on this matter at Candlekeep.com. The bottom line is that canon is what you make of it, but in a practical sense, the wiki must draw the lines in a place that everyone generally agrees upon. Fw190a8 20:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Canon Proposal
I, Hurtzbad, would like to propose we tidy this section up. I've noticed (lurked actually) User:Fw190a8s posts on Candlekeep[|//forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8270] and the resultant flak (pun intended) s/he recieved. Interestingly, if the forum guys had looked here they would find Ulgoth's Beard (or they will when I finish the artical), yes it's a hamlet to the west of Baldur's Gate (city) at the mouth of the river Chionthar.
 * I propose the following :
 * 1) We establish just what is canon in detail and list them (this is easier than you think, just link to edition source books and novels, or even groups of them)
 * 2) We establish a protocol for over-rides in canon eg one source says born 1311 and another says born 1312 (again this is easier than you think, later stuff usually will take priority)
 * 3) We stick to our guns (And get clear about what is cannon) (what more pun's, sigh)
 * This is not a insult to what has gone before, it is ment as an achnologement of how big we have grown and the fact we need to start tiding up. Hurtzbad 08:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Hurtzbad, that a real "ruleset" about canon would be nice. It is also interesting, because in the german wiki we do not have such a detailed rule about these things and I would like to do it the same as here (or similiar). But then there is the thing with the games, sure the story and how the players are going through the game can not be canonical correct ('cause everyone does this in a slightly different way, so it is like in the fiction of Star Wars, where gameplay things are officially not canon, but storyelements are official canon lore). But infos and facts presented in the games (like the mentioned Athkatla), background stories to NPCs which do not contradict other sources, could IMHO considered as canon. Most people know and like the games and I think many of us are considering the NPCs and some events, places and so on as part of the realms. So if someone stumbles over Tiax and reads "not canon", the question is, why should someone like Drizzt be canon and he not? Is he contradicting anything in the Realms, I don't think so and in the end it is like Ed (or someone else) said, canon is what you are considering as DM/Player/Reader canon. A Wiki should stay neutral to such things and only offer (all) informations and let the decission about what counts to the users and visitors. Historicus 10:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I third this idea. While I understand that it would be nice to just follow WOTC's guidelines the fact is that much of the popular material in the Realms is CRPGs like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Furthermore, WOTC's attitude towards canon has been... inconsistent to say the least. While Ed Greenwood as remarked that only published materials are canon Richard Baker has said otherwise (that fans make their own canon) while I believe official WOTC policy is more of a pick and choose factor.
 * Taking the Star Wars example here's a proposed list:
 * E-canon: Similar to Star Wars' "G-canon" this would be anything created with Ed's direct assistance, help, input, etc. This would include things like the core setting rulebooks (e.g., the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide), any books written by Greenwood (e.g., Cormyr: A Novel), or any other such items. This would be the highest level of "canon."
 * W-canon: Like "C-canon" from Star Wars this would be any material produced as a part of licensing but not created by universe creator Greenwood himself. So the majority of dungeons, sourcebooks, adventure material, and novels, would all be W-canon. This would also include the presumed "official" material of the Realms games, such as Baldur's Gate, as outlined in the novels, or the presumed ending of Neverwinter Nights (Aribeth's fate included).
 * S-canon: Like Star Wars' identically named category this would be any material produced officially as part of licensing, but which either includes variables or otherwise doesn't fit with the rest of the literature. Alternate endings to games, for instance, would be S-canon.


 * Go ahead and let me know if you think this works as a proposed method of categorization and how we might implement it. Niirfa-sa 19:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it would be very useful to start Hurtz' proposal ASAP. Although Im not around here much nowadays I'd like to say I think multiple levels is unnecessary and material should simply either be canon or non-canon. Furthermore my understanding as to over-rides was that the most recent ruleset material has precedent (in terms of character/location info) and the more recent a source is (i.e. novels) the more precedent is given (to allow for ret-cons). Johnnyriot999 15:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't particularly care either way. I personally don't think we need this level of micro-management, but since I'll largely ignore it either way and stick to the high level messaging (which is "computer games aren't canon and newer stuff trumps older stuff") then it doesn't impact me.  19:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)