Talk:Shadar-kai

Earlier discussion
This article is taken, almost completely, from this book, and it never mentions the Realms in any way. On the contrary, in a Realms specific article in Dragon N° 391 it says that Shadar-kai are a race new to the Faerûn, partially descended from Shadovar and Krinths, or trasformed by Shar ("He called the new race the shadar-kai in the high tongue of ancient Netheril, which means Those of Shadow’s Gift"). So.. I would change or delete (almost) all of the content. Mpj 04:25, March 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice catch. Like a lot of stuff here the change from 3rd to 4th is make things "interesting". If you have Dragon 391 edit this page to reflect the spirit of what is said. Most of this does read like a "cut & paste" However the stuff in the 4th section doesn't look too bad. Hurtzbad 05:58, March 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: above discussion pertains to a now-deleted (for copyright infringement) version of the article. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:08, August 17, 2017 (UTC)

Split?
A tentative split proposal: Shadar-kai in 3rd edition (Fiend Folio and Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave) and 4th edition (Monster Manual 4th edition and Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) are very difficult in society (magocracy vs meritocracy; rule by illusionists vs by witches) and personality (bitter and driven to save themselves vs fatalistic and uncaring of their fates) and powers (hide in plain sight vs shadow jaunt), and 4th-edition loses the defining shadow curse in favour of devotion to the Raven Queen. Their origins are also different: an ancient cursed fey race in the former, a mutant variety of human in the latter. Their post-Spellplague creation contradicts their pre-Spellplague appearance in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. (The core 4e version are also distinct from the FR 4e version, further complicating matters.)

So I think an article split might be preferable to trying to explain the differences in the article. However, I don't know if Dragon #391 tries to explain the change and I don't especially want to get elbow-deep into 4e trying to develop the 4e version, so I'll leave the split proposal open for now. Given their popularity in 4th-edition works, I suspect that version will be the primary one going forward. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:08, August 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * I think I would be in favor with such a split. I have done something similar for the cases of sprites and merrow. ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:00, August 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * I can read the article of Dragon mag, to see if there is any difference. However, I'll be grateful if someone can give pre-4e sources, to make comparisons.--Zero (talk) 23:07, August 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks. They first appeared in Fiend Folio, pages 150–152 for 3rd edition, and I've included all the lore in the article. The Tearing of the Weave says rather little about them, so it's not really relevant. So you need only check the Dragon mag. — BadCatMan (talk) 00:27, August 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * Well... if in 3e they were fey... mmm, in 4e, they are human of Netherese origin that were transformed into their current Shadar-kai forms when exposed to the Spellplague... there is also an article about Ikemmu in a dragon (thankfully, someone in Candlekeep made a list of 4e FR articles in Dragon and Dungeon). I'm going to read that one as well.--Zero (talk) 02:07, August 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, finished the reading. The article says that the shadar-kai are all of humans that have been infused with "shadow energies" in their bodies, who mutated into shadar-kai when the Spellplague affected them. Mostly were of Netherese heritage, but other humans with shadow energies in the Realms mutated as well. Because of this, they are considered "a new race". They are affected by the "Shadow Curse", that is like a melancholy curse or something like that. They are not related to the Raven Queen, neither to Shar, but the shades credited Shar for the creation of the shadar-kai (mostly because to avoid panic among the shadovar). The article also specifies that this material is specific Realms stuff, and supersedes core stuff regarding to the shadar-kai in the Realms. Is the Fiend Folio info also specifically Realmsian? Or just core?--Zero (talk) 03:56, August 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That expands on the FRCG bits, so they do have a very different retconned origin, which contradicts their original appearance. Fiend Folio is core, but they were used without any changes or conflicts in The Tearing of the Weave and "City of Wyrmshadows" WE for Dragons of Faerûn.


 * I'm more in favour of splitting now. Given the greater use of them in 4e and going forward, I think Shadar-kai should cover the 4e-version, while the 3e version can go to Shadar-kai (fey) or something. — BadCatMan (talk) 06:38, August 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * What is their status in 5e? ~ Lhynard (talk) 13:17, August 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * They are not mentioned in the MM, the SCAG or Volo's Guide. I don't have the 5e adventures, but I don't think there are shadar-kai in those (as the guys from tribality had to create their own conversion a few months ago). At least, they are not in the Player's Companion. Likewise, the UA about the Raven Queen don't even mention them. So, they are totally ignored in 5e, so far.


 * BTW, I'm going to update the article with the relevant info in Dragon 391. If you decide to split... well, you will not have to read the magazine to create the new article :p --Zero (talk) 13:29, August 18, 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. I also included info from Dragon 372. In the article "Playing Shadar-kai" they explain why shadar-kai from the 4e MM are different to those of Netheril. Simply put, they aren't shadovar nor are related to the Netherese in any way, and had their own society (the meritocracy one).--Zero (talk) 14:55, August 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks. I'll go ahead with the split, removing the 3e version to Shadar-kai (fey). — BadCatMan (talk) 01:24, August 19, 2017 (UTC)

5e Shadar-Kai Info
So, it looks like with the release of Mordekainen's Tome of Foes, the Shadar-Kai are now an elven subrace, rather than a human variant. How does that mesh with the lore? Did they just retcon it or is there something bigger at play? Daft inquisitor (talk) 09:14, August 4, 2018 (UTC)


 * We discussed this at the 3e fey shadar-kai page, here. It sounds like the 5e elf shadar-kai cleave close to the 3e fey shadar-kai and add to their background, and ignore the 4e human shadar-kai. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:08, August 4, 2018 (UTC)


 * Since the only explicitly different shadar-kai are the ones mentioned in the Dragon magazine 391 article as having a very specific Netherese origin, and even existing in parallel with the other 4e shadar-kai of the Raven Queen (who, as of 5e, is known in the Realms), my suggestion for renaming these pages is the following: move the shadar-kai page to Shadar-kai (Netherese), to reflect their unique origin, and move the shadar-kai (fey) page, which refers to the Raven Queen-related elves, to simply "Shadar-kai". Objections? ― Sirwhiteout (talk) 16:15, March 22, 2019 (UTC)


 * I think that's basically undoing the changes I made originally. But agreed. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:44, March 23, 2019 (UTC)