Talk:Vaprak

What about ogre mages?
Does anyone know if oni mages worshiped Vaprak as well? ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:23, January 18, 2016 (UTC)


 * I looked through all my sources and I cannot find evidence that ogre magi worship Vaprak. He is served by shamans, predominantly ogres, but some trolls and a few hill giants. Oni mages are arcane spellcasters and thus don't have to worship any deity, right? &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 02:03, January 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't see why not; oni mages used to be just regular ogre mages in the past. Every source said they were the same thing, until 4e separated them. (There's an oni/ogre mage giving our Kara-Tur crew hell these days...) And there's no reason why one can't pick Vaprak as a patron, barring good taste.


 * In fact, I know of at least one. In the first four issues of the DC Comics' Forgotten Realms comic series, the ogre mage Gornak made a deal with Vaprak to make his own hand a divine artifact, the Hand of Vaprak, lost it to Elminster and later tried to reclaim it. He wouldn't do that without some serious Vaprak devotion. He was called both ogre mage and oni mage in the same story too. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:54, January 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback, both!


 * I was under the impression that ogre mages have never been just mages who were ogres, if that's what you mean by "regular ogres". Ogre mages were originally called oriental ogres, I believe, and "oni" is, I think, Japanese for "ogre" or something akin to that. The 3e MM says that ogre mages are "cousins" of ogres but treats them as different species.


 * According to the 2e book Giantcraft, ogres are the offspring of Vaprak and the giant goddess Othea, Annam's wife. I did some Internet research, and I'm told that the 1e version of Deities and Demigods has a whole section on Vaprak. If the 2nd- or 3rd-hand sources are to be trusted, that book claims that Vaprak is a bastard son of Annam, which would mean that his affair to produce the ogres was with his step-mom. Vaprak also sired (by some unknown person, but not Othea) three sons named Anori, Hakuri, and Muaj. These demigods were the fathers of the ogre mage race, so I might guess that the ogre mages might worship them in addition to Vaprak.


 * It also seems that there is a monster character named Muaj who is a powerful oni mage in some 4e book. I'm not sure if it's the oni mage demigod above or not.


 * Unfortunately, I cannot get a hold of either the 1e source or the 4e source, so I cannot confirm any of this, but it gives me more ideas to play with.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 04:57, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * P.S. I really am crazy, though, because all this research is only for a potential encounter my PCs may have Thursday. It's possible they won't even meet this guy. I don't know why I care so much about NPC backstory....


 * I've got the 1e source, I'll look it up when I get home. I didn't think to look there earlier. Monster Mythology didn't have much on Vaprak, as I recall. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 13:44, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that would be great! ~ Lhynard (talk) 16:16, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * I've always understood ogre mages to be basically ogre-plus, with ogres being called oni and ogre mages being oni mages in the east. At least, that's the way it's played in this game I'm in, and it's explicitly stated in that comic, though the glossary merely says they're "similar".


 * The comic offers an odd legend in which the "grandmother of trolls" tries to trick the "child of ogres" into grabbing roast chestnuts, so he would be burned and not her. Except he grabbed her hand and shoved it into the fire with his own, with both losing their hands. Somehow, this caused Vaprak to become god of both ogres and trolls, and he merged their lost hands into the first Hand of Vaprak. I don't know who grandmother and child are. The comic seems to say that Vaprak is primarily a troll god, but maybe this is old, superseded lore. Oh, and Gornak swears to "Vaprak and her eternal brood", suggesting Vaprak is female. Good luck sorting it out now. :p — BadCatMan (talk) 15:42, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Ha ha, yeah, things are starting to get confusing/irreconcilable.


 * But sourcebooks trump comics as far as FR canon goes, right? :p


 * Out of curiosity, do the gore mages have horns and regenerate in the comic?


 * FWIW, I think Vaprak remains the god of trolls as well in 3e at least.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 16:16, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile, some corrections to the above so I have them in one place:
 * They were called Japanese ogres in 1e and said to be cousins of the "Western ogres".
 * It was a Dragon article that detailed Muaj&mdash;#349, which I also don't have. :(
 * Savage Species has some ogre mage detail; I'll go see if I can find it.
 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 16:16, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Meh. Savage Species just confirms that they are "magical beings native to distant lands" who are "cousins" of regular ogres. ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:46, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Deities and Demigods 1st edition also does not make any mention of ogre mages in the entry for Vaprak, which is similarly short than the one in Monster Mythology. Daranios (talk) 20:34, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, the ogre mages have horns, and so does the so-called "child of ogres", in fact, little tiny ones, making me think he's an ogre mage or an ogre mage god. Gornak has all the regular powers of an ogre mage, though I didn't notice regeneration on my skim through. — BadCatMan (talk) 23:27, January 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dragon #349 contains an answer to the original question. Most ogre mages (the article does not appear to use the plural "magi") feel forsaken by Vaprak and only give him grudging respect. Instead, they often worship themselves as divine vessels because they are all descendant from his three once-divine sons, Anori, Hakuni, and Muaj, who were stripped of their divinity and immortality because they lost a war with the "civilized" nations. Ogre mages believe that when they die, their soul goes to their strongest offspring where it continues on its journey toward regaining its lost divinity. Muaj was also the name of a mythical primordial ancestor upon whose petrified skin is supposedly written the only account of the history of the ogre mages. Hope that helps. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 01:51, January 21, 2016 (UTC)