User talk:BadCatMan

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 * User talk:BadCatMan/2012
 * User talk:BadCatMan/2013
 * User talk:BadCatMan/2014
 * User talk:BadCatMan/2015

Revision Undo
"Undo revision 279833 by Zhentar (talk) Please don't remove valid lore without good reason"

There was good reason. The source was from 1995 and Dungeon #170 lists the Castle as completely rebuilt. That section not only isnt up to date, its unnecessary for an overview section, especially since "Places of Interest" has its own section which I was in the process of adding to when my changes were removed. I will be removing it again in the future and moving its contents in a newly created Valjevo Castle page in a history section.

Calling a tavern owner "mysterious" and the tavern itself a "great place" is subjective and while it may be "lore" in a very loose sense, it is opinion and not fact. It was changed to "popular" to be more objective.

I have no intention of removing facts from the wiki as a whole, only to move them to more appropriate areas and with citations. Obviously subjective statements, however, I have no concern in preserving.

--Zhentar (talk) 07:37, January 4, 2016 (UTC)


 * It's not the wiki's goal to present only an up-to-date version or current situation. Rather, the wiki's goal is to present lore at all points in history, so it may be useful in all eras of play. That's a consequence of our Remove Wiki from Timeline policy. So, we maintain the existing lore as history, rather than remove it, and then add to it with fresh history. Erasure of content isn't the solution. Instead, write it in past tense, add a date for context, then add new lore. Move it to a better location, but don't delete unless it's patently wrong or unsourceable.


 * You also moved some information around unnecessarily. The Cracked Crown is "The city's most expensive inn." according to The Moonsea sourcebook, but if you move that outside the citation, it's no longer clear where that information came from.


 * Yes, the article is untidy and cluttered, and much of this lore should go on separate articles. But the lore shouldn't be deleted out of hand until it is.


 * Furthermore, subjectivity isn't a concern. This is a D&D setting after all, and the wiki should be useful as such. Opinions are a thing we report on. "Mysterious" is how people view the NPC. "A haven from the tumult of the city" is how NPCs view the inn. These are facts (if that is what the adventure module truly says) that the wiki should present.


 * As a new member, we have to pay extra attention to what you do to ensure that it maintains and improves the wiki along the lines of our policies. Too many come in, do something strange, and disappear. Your edit summary was contradictory. You said "Added notable locations" but that's not what happened. You said "Removed superfluous text", but I don't agree it was superfluous, only faulty and/or should be on a separate page. I don't know that you intend to create a Valjevo Castle article and develop Phlan (though it would be utterly fantastic if you do). Too many new editors come in with a grand project but don't follow through. So, I can't trust a new editor will remove something one day and maybe restore it the next.


 * It sounds like you're taking on a huge project here. I would not recommend it as your first project. Phlan's a big, oft-used place and this is a big and cluttered article to overhaul, and there'll be too much text to shift while you learn the ropes. Instead, I recommend you start on something small and self-contained, like an article for one of those taverns, and branch out from there. Ask us if you have any questions, and, finally, welcome to the wiki. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:31, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

Back in what seems forever ago, I overhauled the Zhentil Keep page and added the majority of the content that is there now. I took a break from D&D and FR for a while and am now interested in finishing what I started. To be fair, the Zhentil Keep page itself I left unfinished (the history section is meant to get its own page for a starter) and still needs a lot of work. You recommend not starting with Phlan, yet it is the starting point for a new campaign Im going to DM, so overhauling the page while I research serves me in the long run as well. Honestly, the whole Moonsea area is needing a dedicated archivist and Im a bit miffed at seeing all this fame and fortune going to the Sword Coast while the Moonsea crumbles and my favorite city remains a sad pile of rubble. Perhaps a well documented Moonsea will inspire further development from the powers that be...

Zhentar (talk) 22:59, January 4, 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah! I apologise, you're not a new member, you're a returning old member. I'm afraid 2009/2010 was way before my time here, and I've not seen your name around any histories. In that case, welcome back! Anyway, things have changed quite a lot around here since then.


 * I didn't mean not to do Phlan at all, more that it would be better to start on a smaller article, such as a tavern or NPC from Phlan, or Valjevo Castle itself. It's easier to manage, and gives you a place to put lore that's unnecessary in the main article. That starts clearing the main article for development.


 * BTW, you made 10 edits there today. I find an easier approach is to copy the text to a word document, do and undo all the changes I like, then paste it back and publish. It saves on undoing changes, and makes it easier for others to get a handle on what you're doing.


 * Phlan received a lot of attention in 5th-edition adventures recently, which User:Unknown user 11 created pages for the NPCs of. That's where Madam Freona's Tea Kettle came from.


 * Phlan was one of the first places I discovered in the Realms, through the Pool of Radiance novels, so I'm looking forward to exploring it more fully through this project of yours.