User talk:BadCatMan/2015

Copy-edit Question
Usually, your copy-edits of my articles make sense and are welcome&mdash;with all the entries I've been editing, I make a lot of silly mistakes, (mistakes that are somewhat embarrassing at times.) So I admit I was confused by your edit of The Fine Gold Chain. I am not at all bothered by the edit&mdash;it's a wiki after all&mdash;but I don't understand what was wrong with any of things you changed. Or does the way you changed it just sound better to your ears? Again, this is just a question of curiosity. (I have noted that you like to change whenever I use the word "due".) ~ Lhynard (talk) 01:00, January 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * We all make mistakes; I certainly did when I touched up The Fine Gold Chain. It's also hard to follow a sentence around wiki code.
 * No worries about asking, I'm happy to explain, if I can. First, I'm a technical editor of scientific papers written by non-English-speakers, hence my focus here. I generally correct errors in grammar and style according to US English rules and roughly the Chicago Manual of Style, with adaptations to a wiki. But I limit the full range of possible edits here, to preserve a writer's voice, a fantasy style, and a conversational style.
 * Now, the specific points on the edit:
 * "The Fine Gold Chain was nearly impossible to miss to a visitor of Memnon" changed to "...for a visitor of Memnon". What did I do? I think it was editor's instinct. Let's rearrange the sentence to something equivalent: "To a visitor of Memnon, The Fine Gold Chain was nearly impossible to miss" or "For a visitor of Memnon, The Fine Gold Chain was nearly impossible to miss". Actually, both sound fine. The original "to a visitor" just sounded odd to me, I think because of the repeated use of "to". Let's correct "visitor of Memnon" (implying they are of, or come from Memnon) as "visitor to Memnon" (they come to Memnon). So "to miss to a visitor to Memnon" sounds very repetitious, while "to miss for a visitor to Memnon" is clearer.
 * "...due to its unique architecture." The grammatically correct usage of "due to" is tricky, and I'm not sure I understand it myself. I'll point to this grammar article. It boils down to "due to" being equivalent to "caused by" but not "because of". It's a common problem, one I only discovered last year, and I imagine most people who aren't editors and grammar nerds don't care. I could leave it, but changing it is a force of habit. "Due to"/"Caused by" didn't work, so I went for "owing to".
 * "The inner decorum". Here, "decorum" actually means social behaviour, propriety, good manners. So that would be how the customers and staff act, or perhaps the gargoyles. :) "Decor" means the style of decoration and furnishings (which I misspelled this morning after zero sleep). "Interior" seemed more appropriate, being specific to describing a building.
 * So, I hope that answers your questions. I'm happy to explain my copy-editing, but don't really have the opportunity to do so in a summary box. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:02, January 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * "Due to"/"owing to" &mdash; Ah, I see. That article's author was sloppy on his/her explanations, but it's a matter of the part of speech of "due" vs. "because"; the former is an adjective, while the latter is an adverb. In which case, "owing to" can get away with it, because as a participle, it can function as an adjective or adverb. I would argue, however, that this is all a little prescriptivist, as "due to" is a phrase that has taken on a role of a preposition in its own right, so it should be able to function in an adverbial sense as well. In any case, since the whole participial phrase functions as an adverb, it really should have a comma. :)
 * "Decorum"/"decor" &mdash; embarrassingly, I never knew this. Thanks for educating me! (I'm glad those gargoyles aren't alive now!)
 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 21:21, January 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Prescriptivist, yes, it is. But I don't expect anyone else to change how they use it, and I wouldn't edit an article solely to change it. It's just one of the things I correct along the way. (But, ugh, a comma? Something just looks funny about it.)
 * What I've been doing is to go through Special:NewPages, patrol a new page, click edit, read through, and check wiki code, style, spelling, and grammar. I want to ensure all new pages match the current house style while we update the old articles to that style. I like to think the FRW could be the only professionally edited wiki around. :) — BadCatMan (talk)

Year tally
Just saw your year tally. You're going to hate me by the time I finish adding all the years that haven't yet been. Man, I wish I had more time online so I could finally finish that project :(. -hashtalk 12:31, February 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * Eh, I'm already well past any new years pages there will be. It just puts me in a version of Zeno's Paradox: the closer I get to the end, the slower I get. :)
 * So, anyway, I have 300 pages (1000 DR to 1299 DR) to check and rewrite the plagiarised entries from The Grand History of the Realms; not all will be filled, so it's effectively less than that. That was the main reason for doing this, since the copied pages made up a substantial proportion of the wiki. Then I have about 22 pages (1363 DR to 1385 DR of hefty recent history to copy-edit, tidy, and also check for plagiarised entries from tGHotR and a variety of other sources. They get longer and longer, so it's another Zeno's Paradox. Then, finally, the 100-odd pages from then until 4th or 5th edition, which will have a scattering of entries. Then straight on to the end of the Roll of Years, with a few future entries. Plus, I go over new or added-to pages as they come up.
 * I hope to finish by the end of the year, but I've been at it maybe two and a half years now. Whew. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:56, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

Lapongo
Hi, I could not fint the rename option. I'm used to MediaWiki on Wikipedia.-- David Latapie (✒ | @) 02:18, February 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Wikia uses the same code, but the rename button varies depending on the skin. In Monobook, it's a tab up the top. In Oasis (the default), you click the arrow next to the edit button to bring up a list of options.
 * However, where are you getting information about Lopango? All I can see is a name on a map. The Maztica sourcebooks otherwise don't mention it. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:25, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Copy-Edit
Hay BadCatMan, Thanks for fixing my errors on the spells that I have made/added to! Just wondering if there are any pointers that I should think about so that you don't have to fix my mistakes? I don't want to feel like I'm throwing a work load on someone else :S! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 12:41, February 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * No worries. It's cleaning up after the anonymous users that takes up most of my time. Some of the edits I make to yours are just style and formatting and minor fixed. Other times I rephrase sentences to make the discussion more concise and to the point, or more natural-sounding.
 * I think the main problem I've noticed in your articles is the use of "would" or "would have". In this sense, it's a past tense of "will". That is, if Drizzt intends to kill Elminster, then we say in present tense "Drizzt will kill Elminster" and in past tense, we say "Drizzt would kill Elminster". If Drizzt was prevented for some reason, then we say "Drizzt would have killed Elminster". It's not incorrect, but it's not exactly complete – we know Drizzt intended to kill Elminster, but don't find out if he did or not. It works, technically, but it's a not a natural construction in English, and used only in certain situations. I find it's a common style problem among people who not native English speakers.
 * In most cases, the straightforward past tense will do fine: "Drizzt killed Elminster". It's simple to use, direct and clear.
 * For example, in your contagion article, you wrote "The old "contagion" spell would have infected a touched target...", which implies that the spell is designed to infect the target, but may not have ever done so, implying it's never been used or doesn't work as intended. I changed it to "Older versions of the contagion spell infected a touched target...", which is simpler and states clearly that the spell did exactly that.
 * I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:43, February 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Really interesting insights. The work of a copy-editor is often overlooked (especially when it is done well), so I'm always happy to see you tidying up after us. I know I often use the U.K. vernacular in my articles and it is a conscious effort to check it and change it. Are there any other mistakes or points that I should look out for in my articles too? The less work you have to do the better.--Eli the Tanner (talk) 18:34, February 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I'll try and keep all this in mind! I really appreciate it! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated  22:49, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

After editing dry technical papers all day, it's nice to do the same with wizards and dragons at the end of the day. :) Mostly, I want to ensure that any new article showcased in Did You Know? is top-notch, as well as to ensure all new articles have good quality and meet our standards, to aid in cleaning up the wiki. It's the sheer volume of anonymous users creating half-done articles that I find most frustrating.

Eli: Yes, I've noticed the UK spellings. I'm Australian, but always work with US English, so outside work and wiki articles I have to make a point of using my native tongue. :) IIRC, you generally have the same minor errors I do: basic typos but nothing regular; sometimes a word is in lower case that should be upper case; and the occasional UK spelling.

Terrorblades: One other point is the indefinite article, "a". When used before a vowel sound, it becomes "an" (I think it's just because of flow in spoken English, switching from a vowel sound to another vowel sound is a bit stuttery). So, we say "a conjuration spell" and "an illusion spell", but not "a illusion" spell. Typically, "an" precedes words that begin with the vowel letters a, e, i, o, and u. However, this isn't always the case, as it depends on the pronunciation of the word. Sometimes, u is pronounced "yoo". For example, "an ugly orc" (ugly is pronounced ah-gly) but "a user" (user is pronounced yoo-ser).

Some of what I do is just for style, such as if I think something can be better explained or would sound better if written another way. Often, a major change is quicker than a minor one, i.e., simply rewriting something is easier than trying to find a small fix that maintains the phrasing of an original, tangled sentence. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:15, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Hehe. Oh ok, I'll try and think of that, I think I did it in one of the new spells I edited or made, cant remember witch one it was! Hihih I'm a wiki yoo-ser! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 08:48, February 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hey there BadCatMan, just wanted to thank you again for your continued copy-editing efforts of my (and others) articles. It is always appeciated and really helps bring the wikia up to a higher standard. Often I can't believe I missed such obvious mistakes despite double-checking. Thanks!--Eli the Tanner (talk) 15:42, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

Game Guides
Not sure if you were aware but Wikia has a mobile app called Wikia Game Guides that is available on iOS and Android. In order for users to be able to find your wiki using the app, the Special:CuratedContent page needs to be filled in and preferably kept updated. I noticed yours was not and filled it in the best I could. Please take a look at it and make changes if needed. Make sure to save when you are done. Any categories that are duplicated or not correct will highlight in red. Pictures are generally picked up from the category page if there is one on it. If not, then you can add one manually by clicking on the gray box. The unused Featured Content does not have to be a category like the rest of the entries and can be a video, article page or image. If left blank, it simply doesn't appear. Thanks! Pinkachu ( talk ) 01:04, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll check this out later. I messed about with Wikia Game Guides when it came out (and I admit I couldn't really see the point of it for our wiki). This CuratedContent seems new.


 * I invite our regular editors to work on this. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 02:16, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * Only Admins have access to edit that page. Pinkachu ( talk ) 18:55, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * Seems so, I tried having a go but couldn't get anywhere. Maybe Moviesign would be up for it, he often likes to tinker with that sort of thing.--Eli the Tanner (talk) 23:01, March 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * I messed with it a little bit, but not sure how the Wiki wants to organize it and I do not have an Android, so I am not really sure what it looks like or why I was adding categories... - Darkwynters (talk) 00:41, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Quick question
Is it standard practice these days to use the DEFAULTSORT template to arrange individuals by surname in categories? Cheers. -hashtalk 12:11, March 24, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:12, March 24, 2015 (UTC)

N-Dashes
FYI, you do not need to bother putting n-dashes in page ranges inside a Cite template. Dashes are automatically converted to n-dashes by the template. It won't hurt if you do, but it's an unnecessary step while editing. If you discover otherwise, please let me know. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 15:18, April 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay. I hadn't noticed the change. It used to be that hyphens came out as hyphens, IIRC. Alright, thanks. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:19, April 9, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Hyphens are still hyphens at Stoner's Needle, so I guess the Cite comic template doesn't convert them yet. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:51, April 9, 2015 (UTC)


 * On it! &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 16:51, April 9, 2015 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks! — BadCatMan (talk) 00:53, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

Drizzt page
On the Drizzt Do'Urden page, one of his aliases is spelled incorrectly and should be "Ragfluw" and not "Ragluw".

Ragfluw is Wulfgar spelled backwards. That inversion was part of the story. – User talk:99.58.157.118


 * Thanks! I've fixed it. Don't be shy about making an edit yourself though. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:58, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Sort Key
Actually, when you removed the sort key from the Template:Class table in Thallos el Bhirax, his name ceased being sorted properly in Category:Fighters (2e). You need to have both the sort key param and the set, because the default setting in the class table is to use. ~ Lhynard (talk) 23:16, April 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you mean, Lhyn... BadCat and I have been using the Defaultsort for years now... Thallos el Bhirax is under both "Fighters (2e)" and "Fighters of 7th Level (2e)... - Darkwynters (talk) 23:29, April 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, actually, this is really weird and both BadCat and Movie need to have a look at this... for example, Artus Cimber is under "A" for the auto class cats... and under "C" for all other cats... I think we need to have a look into this... I thought the Defaultsort... sorted everything... hmmm, nice catch, Lhyn - Darkwynters (talk) 23:38, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

Ilmatari question!
Hay BadCatMan! I had a question to you regarding the Ilmatori priests! In a Campaign I'mm planing there are going to the factions fighting over the power of baldurs gate. There figthing under the guise of being bodyguard/mercenary factions, in the fights people rarely go for killing blows but the defeated are left behind knocked out on the street, so I planed on having a small church of Ilmater having its priests collecting the wounded and treating there wounds. To them this would be like a attempt to do good and also to convert some of the faction members. You seam like a leading expert in the ways of the ilmatori so I wanted to ask if they would do such a thing? Thanks! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated 21:21, May 12, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, that sounds exactly like something they'd do. "Help all who hurt" is one of their creeds, and they wouldn't deny healing to anyone. Plus, it's a matter of cleaning up strife that would negatively affect ordinary people. Some of the more militant Ilmatari would even be getting involved to break up fights if there's a risk of collateral damage to bystanders.


 * But then, my Ilmatari PC is a monk/drunken master of the Saint Dionysus, so my feelings may be skewed. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 02:02, May 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes! thank you! Hmm militant ay? That might come in handy... Ah the Drunken monks ^^! Thank you allot for awnsering BadCatMan I really appreciate it! Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated  18:38, May 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, not so much militant as proactive: adventurers, fighting clerics, monks, and especially paladins. That depends on what you want to do with them, and if you choose a specific order. — BadCatMan (talk) 06:36, May 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * Interesting, I'll have to do some reading then... I have a good faction lead by a crippled paladin of tyr (Still need to do some work on him and the faction). I figured that if that faction got in trouble followers of Tyr would appear to help but the Ilmatari could be even a better fit! All factions will have warriors or allies that will challenge the party if there close to being wiped out. The paladins faction (Need a good name: Truthsworn?) is going to build poor houses to help the needy so that would work out very well. Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated  13:28, May 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't get a chance to respond sooner. "Truthsworn" suits the paladins of Tyr better, being about truth. Perhaps the Order of the Golden Cup would suit? — BadCatMan (talk) 09:09, May 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmm then I guess I'll keep it, Well there not all paladins, just the leader. The rest are people who got inspired by the Paladin, He cant fight him self any more hes been permanently crippled. So he leads them and teaches them things so that they can be honest and fight back the Merc's that are in the city... But yeah "Truesworn" and then the slang name would be "true's" or "Sworn's"! Hmm that Order sounds interesting, yeah they would probably do very nice! Thanks!  Terrorblades 's Far Realm logs dated  22:06, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

Factcheck
Just for information, you really want recheck MOST of my articles? (Unknown user 11 (talk) 07:40, May 23, 2015 (UTC))


 * I wanted to create the template and apply it to a lot of other articles, not just your own. I saw a lot of articles in a row from you with errors, and I remembered your Cloak & Dagger articles had some small errors too, so I felt it would be faster to tag all of your articles for later checking rather than go through and tag them individually. I will untag those I've already checked.
 * If you are ever unsure you have the meaning correct, then please feel free to place at the top of the article so someone else can check it for you. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:06, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, next time I have doubt about one articles I use the template; I' m asking because I saw you signal also articles that I'm sure are correct (also because other Users help improve) like for example Eregul or Severin (Unknown user 11 (talk) 09:56, May 23, 2015 (UTC))


 * It was easier to have my bot do it as a whole batch and get tag some that were correct, rather than try to tag everything not checked. — BadCatMan (talk) 10:46, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

About Pharblex Spattergoo for what I know nobody know the exact date of the Tyranny of Dragons, in Candlekeep someone say 1489, but was conjectural. Sure in the source was said only that he was chief from before the start of the campaign (Unknown user 11 (talk) 07:34, May 25, 2015 (UTC))

Article merger instructions
As a set of guidelines for others, and as a reminder to myself, here is a procedure for merging articles. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:40, June 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Start by saving off-line copies of the text of both articles, for back-up and for editing them together later.
 * 2) Delete the target article, the one that has the name for the final merged article. Use the "Deletion prior to merger" reason.
 * 3) Take the merging article, the one that is to be merged into the target article. Rename it to the name of the target article.
 * 4) Delete the merging article (now under the target article name). Use the "Deletion prior to merger" reason.
 * 5) Undelete the target article. Restore all edits.
 * 6) The target article will now have the edit histories of both articles. The most recent will take precedence.
 * 7) Edit the target article. Take the back-up text of the older article and perform edits and rewrites as necessary to merge the texts.
 * 8) Done!

Cite book
Hi there BadCatMan,

I've been looking for a Template:Cite Book that would implement well with my primary blog, the Lovecraft blog. It has been in bad disrepair and neglect and I'm overhauling it in spite of an absentee admin. I wanted to make sure it was ok if I used your Cite Book template. I found it via the Pathfinder wikia, but they said that they had your permissions, and I wanted to get that as well. I've imported the code and have begun testing it, but I haven't released it to the whole community.

Sorry, that last comment was from me. LoreDudeRoth (talk) 13:37, June 1, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay. I think we probably borrowed the template from Wikipedia's template in the first place, and just stripped it back. It was before my time. So, I don't see any problem reusing it. Go ahead. :)


 * Is this for a HP Lovecraft wiki? — BadCatMan (talk) 14:01, June 1, 2015 (UTC)

Eilistraee page
Sorry about the late answer. Should I create a new page regarding the Church of Eilistraee (including rituals and artifacts/magic)? Should that page include the info about the various temples and shrines?

Also, my apologies about the issue concerning multiple edits. --Tsammarco (talk) 01:09, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Re: I will make the Church of Eilistraee page as soon as possible. So, should the artifacts remain on Eilistraee's page (with links and brief descriptions on the Church page)? Are there any templates that I should use to create the church page? --Tsammarco (talk) 03:20, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Re: I've created the page and it is mostly complete. It's not as rich as Ilmater's church's, but I'm mostly ok with how it turned out. I will try to keep it updated with any lore or info that will be released concerning Eilistraee's return and activities post-Sundering. --Tsammarco (talk) 13:50, June 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, I expect there'll be much more to say about Eilistraee and her faithful. :) Okay, thanks and well done, it's an impressive lot of work. I'll begin to go over both pages to check the lore, wiki format, and so on, and let you know if I have any concerns. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:53, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Will rewrite borrowed passages. --Tsammarco (talk) 12:59, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Done. Let me know if there's anything else that I need to change--Tsammarco (talk) 14:13, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! — BadCatMan (talk) 09:44, June 9, 2015 (UTC)

Regarding your last edit, I quite liked the passage quoted from Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet, does including it go against the wiki's policy? Perhaps we could add something like: as described in Evermeet: Island of Elves, by Elaine Cunningham before the passage.--Tsammarco (talk) 11:24, June 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * I did too, and I struggled to rewrite it in any way as good as Elaine Cunningham. I realised it was intended to be a quote, but felt I should just rewrite all the remaining copied text. But small bits of quoted material are acceptable for illustration purposes, if clearly indicated and attributed. We can add it back as a formal quote, using the Quote template, and attribute it to Araushnee with a reference. I can do that when next I can work on the page. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:32, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

I edited the page, adding the quote and referencing Araushnee as author: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee#Personality --Tsammarco (talk) 11:58, June 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I removed the mention of the book, in order to maintain an in-universe POV within the main text of the article. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:09, June 17, 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the teachings section on Eilistraee's page, it basically consists of passages taken from Demihuman Deities, organized in a different order. I've reorganized it further, putting each part under the corresponding category (for example, On Drow, On Strangers and so on: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee#Teachings), but I'd like to know if I must rewrite the passages altogether, or if they are acceptable for the dogma (since other deities' pages directly quote text too). If I must, I'll do it in the evening--Tsammarco (talk) 16:25, June 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Feel free to rewrite what you feel cleaves too closely to the sourcebook. Otherwise, I'll check them myself when I get to them.


 * Some of the dogma passages in the sourcebooks have quotation marks, making them appear to be standard prayers or commandments. Some are what novices are specifically charged with doing. Those are fair to quote, though they tend to be too extensive and not particularly interesting. As for Eilistraee, only the "rightful place" message needs to be quoted. The rest is plain text to be rewritten.


 * I'm interested in seeing her focus on food. I played a drow chef-turned-paladin of Eilistraee once. :) Her bastard sword was a katana, allegedly a meat cleaver. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:51, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

I've modified the text, rewriting copied passages http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee#Teachings And yes, I too felt that Eilistraee's focus on food warranted her words on it their own pargraph. Also, cool character concept :D --Tsammarco (talk) 12:14, June 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks.
 * Seeing the strong focus on food in her dogma, I just ran with that. I reasoned that the drow food industry, from butchery to selling to preparation, was a hotbed of Eilistraeen worship, thanks to their service to others and being trusted not to poison anyone lest they soon be found out. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:30, June 23, 2015 (UTC)

On the dogma section of the Eilistraee page, I think that it is important that it is included, as it explains Eilistraee's ideals. I'll copy the text from the Church page and edit the latter with a link to the appropriate section of the Eilistraee page.--Tsammarco (talk) 14:48, July 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Previously, I encouraged splitting the mega-huge Eilistraee page into two: one about the goddess as a character, another about the organisation of her believers. Partly, that was to reduce the length, and partly as a matter of organisation and consistency.
 * Dogma, I feel, is a matter for the church page, what the worshippers are encouraged to do and believe. There's a subtle difference between what Eilistraee believes and her ideals, and what her worshippers believe and their ideals. They're drow, they'd sneak in their own views. Several gods have heresies that hold markedly different beliefs to their mainstream faiths, yet which are sometimes supported by their deities. It would be erroneous to suggest the mainstream dogma applies to these heresies. I'm not aware that Eilistraee has any (though I'm creating an offshoot faith of pterodactyl-riding "Eilish"-worshippers in my own game, based on the early Ilythiiri experiments), but surely the Masked Lady espouses slightly different ideals to the traditional Eilistraeen faith. Eilistraee might be a crappy cook, but know it's a good thing for her followers to try.
 * It was also for consistency with our other recent, more developed deity pages – Ilmater, Mystra, and Waukeen – for whom we left dogma as a matter for church pages rather than deity pages. (There's another example: Mystra's dogma has survived three Mystras, and we know Midnight had very different views to what she had to espouse, so it's clearly a church topic more than a deity topic.)
 * And yes, length. It was redundant to have it twice in just the same form. I'm trying to get these unwieldy beasts of articles nice and tidy, and cutting back on duplication is vital.
 * Now, it would be fair to explain Eilistraee's ideals, but in the Personality section, framed as what she herself believes, not what her followers are encouraged to believe and do. But I think her views are already well covered. — BadCatMan (talk) 15:27, July 20, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Eilistraee doesn't have any heresies, and the Masked Lady was a very brief parenthesis of her career as divinity, so I think that her teachings coincide with her ideals, but I understand the reason behind your edit. I will swap the changes around, and leave the description of the teachings of the goddess on the church page, and a link on the Eilistraee's page.--Tsammarco (talk) 15:36, July 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks! — BadCatMan (talk) 06:48, July 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * Regarding your latest edit, wouldn't the paragraph about Eilistraee sending visions and dreams to all drow fit better under Manifestations or Activities?--Tsammarco (talk) 13:50, August 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * That was kind of left behind after moving everything else. I looked at it, but Powers seemed good enough. I've now moved it to Activities.


 * I'm making a concerted effort to polish, structure, and tidying the Eilistraee and Church of Eilistraee pages, and cleaving some of the excess lore off into separate articles (like The Dark Dancer), so I'll be adding further references and tweaks to them. I hope we can make a Featured Article out of one them eventually. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:13, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

That would be nice. I feel sorry for giving you quite a lot of work to do with the phrasing of some passages or, at times, errors in the use of verb tenses. If you want split the lore in the church page further, let me know how I can be of help--Tsammarco (talk) 19:44, August 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * No worries, it's what I do normally around here and Eilistraee is such a popular topic it's good for the FRW to show a very nice article on her. You weren't the first to work on the article; Eilistraee fans seem to be very verbose. Thanks very much for splitting off the lore into separate pages. The Church page really only needs a short list of important, representative temples, with no more than a single line for summary, I feel. The same goes for the orders. I'll be working on some more of these myself (especially since my paladin-chef is getting some action again). — BadCatMan (talk) 02:28, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

About the verbosity, speaking from my personal experience, I feel that Eilistraee is a truly beautiful character and wish to make her justice, but as a non-native speaker, finding the right words and expressing them in a coincise manner can be hard, hence the verbosity.

I've created pages for the Sword Dancer of Eilistraee and Silverhair Knight, added the protectors of the Song to the order list and summarized the info regarding the first two orders on the main church page. I was thinkign about creating a Protectors of the Song page, but there isn't much info on them (and their description is also included in the Promenade page)--Tsammarco (talk) 01:06, August 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, I understand the non-native speaker issue. That's just a common minor problem of over-phrasing, using three words where one would do, for example (though editing these articles after the fact, I don't know who wrote what, but you seem to write rather well). What I meant by verbosity is the repetition of information, extrapolation of concepts not actually discussed in the sources, and packing in a lot of extra lore like temples and orders not really relevant to the main topic. That all comes from a lot of different people adding to the article. Eilistraee has a lot of passionate fans, almost independent of the setting, and they want to talk about her. (For me, she's just an interesting deity choice for a character. I haven't even read her novels.) But the sheer size actually discourages people from reading and working on it, hence why it's important to prune these back. So if I remove something, you don't have to add it back in.


 * On the issue of extrapolation, I'd like to discuss these lines (as they currently stand in the Eilistraee page): "Eilistraee was convinced that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow. She was comforted that some worked their way free of the Spider Queen's web." and "She tirelessly fought to make her dream of drow and all races living in harmony a reality, standing up to tyranny (especially her mother's) that oppressed people or poisoned their hearts with hatred and prejudice, never giving up despite all the odds." While I don't doubt it, nothing in the main cited source actually discusses these points specifically. Eilistraee specifically wants the drow redeemed and back on the surface; we don't know what she thinks of orcs or tieflings (I played a tiefling interested in Eilistraee). So I find these sentences very speculative, extrapolating views from what we do know, but not really specific to her. They could apply to many good deities, but not necessarily Eilistraee. My inclination is to remove them, frankly, or cut them back to being specific to the drow, to better reflect what was discussed in the sources.


 * Don't be shy about making new articles. As long as there's a little information about a topic (more than three sentences as a rule-of-thumb), it warrants a new article. That can reduce the length of an existing article, it grows the wiki, and helps readers find different information via categories. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:59, August 5, 2015 (UTC)

About "Eilistraee was convinced that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow. She was comforted that some worked their way free of the Spider Queen's web." Demihuman deities says that "Eilistraee is forging her own path, one that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and the free form expression of all that entails", so I think that it is pretty accurate. The part about Eilistraee being comforted is in Faiths and Pantheons.

"She tirelessly fought to make her dream of drow and all races living in harmony a reality, standing up to tyranny (especially her mother's) that oppressed people or poisoned their hearts with hatred and prejudice, never giving up despite all the odds" is extrapolation. It could be removed, if needed.


 * Okay, great, thanks. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:24, August 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think the quoted line from DD is about accepting people who follow her personally. I've added a new line to reflect that, rephrased the opening to introduce it as extrapolation, and tagged it as speculation. "Convinced and fought so that" was an awkward construction, so I changed them to "believed". Here's what I've come up with:

Though focused on the drow, Eilistraee accepted folk of all races who danced along her path, who delighted in life and in the free-form expression of life in all its forms. Thus, by extension, she believed all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow.
 * What do you think? — BadCatMan (talk) 11:43, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

The line talks about Eilistraee forging her own path, so I guess that she actively works to see drow and all races living peacefully together. In Demihuman Deities, Her teachings are also about promoting harmony not only between drow and surface dwellers, but among all races. Considering these two points, I think that the part about her fighting so that all races could be together could be sourced. Would this be fine:

Though focused on the drow, Eilistraee accepted folk of all races who danced along her path, who delighted in life and in the free-form expression of life in all its forms. She fought so that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences, and strongly believed in the possibility of redemption for those who had fallen to evil, especially the drow. --Tsammarco (talk) 12:03, August 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll take it. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:46, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Regarding your last edit and the removal of  She fought combining the grace and agility of her dance with the lethality of her fencing skills. I wrote that because she has the spring attack/whirlwing attack feat chain, which reflects an agile and mobile fighting style, dancing in and out weapon reach to strike and avoid to be hit. How could this be better described?--Tsammarco (talk) 12:13, August 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * I didn't remove it or change it, I only shifted it to Abilities. The 3e stats applied to the deity as a whole, not just her avatar, so I moved the information to a more general discussion of her skills and abilities that I'd constructed. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:22, August 8, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind then. I didn't see that--Tsammarco (talk) 12:39, August 8, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'll write the summary for the introductive paragraph in the evening. How many lines should it be?

There are some nice artworks of Eilistraee, but many of them are NSFW and, for some reason, 3D rather thank just drawings. Of the SFW ones, I like these: http://isriana.deviantart.com/art/Eilistraee-165383419, http://gold-seven.deviantart.com/art/The-Lady-in-the-Forest-15480981, the one of Eilistraee and Corellon (already included). I also like http://isriana.deviantart.com/art/The-Dark-Maiden-55652827 (if it is SFW), but the chin is a bit weird in that pic. The official artworks are all already included. There's the Dark Seldarine picture from faiths and pantheons, that includes Eilistraee and all the other drow gods--Tsammarco (talk) 13:32, August 10, 2015 (UTC)

Currently, I can't think about anything to add. I will update the page with any info that may be released in the future (Ed Greenwood's answers and, probably, the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide sourcebook that will come out in November).--Tsammarco (talk) 13:43, August 10, 2015 (UTC)

Would this be any good as a summary? As you said, I tried to briefly cover Eilistraee's personality, history and goals.

Eilistraee was the daughter of Araushnee and Corellon Larethian, a free spirited and kind hearted goddess, with a fiery streak in her personality. After Araushnee's treachery almost made her slay her own father when a host of evil deities assaulted Arvandor, even as she was cleared from any guilt, Eilistraee chose to share her mother's exile. She made that choice because she knew that the drow would need her light in the time to come. After the descent of the drow, Eilistraee tried her best to be a mother goddess to her people and bring them the hope of a new life: she fought to lead them back to the lands of light, helping them to flourish and prosper in harmony with all other races, free from Lolth's tyranny. Hers was an uphill battle, as her power was little and she was opposed by the gods of the Dark Seldarine. However, despite having to overcome many hardships and setbacks, Eilistraee never gave up fighting for her people.

In the 1370s DR, her conflict with Lolth over the souls of the drow race ultimately led to the goddess' defeat and disappearance. It lasted for about a century, until the Sundering (circa 1480s DR), when Eilistraee returned to life and to her followers. --Tsammarco (talk) 16:22, August 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * I dunno, SFW pictures don't seem faithful to the character. ;) Well, we're spoiled for choice for extra pictures of Eilistraee, and I don't want to single out any one fan-artist if they don't volunteer. I could make a call in the forums if necessary. If we do take fan art, I'd prefer pics that illustrate more than just, well, a dancing naked drow with a sword. The one of Eilistraee and Corellon is good, as it illustrates the story.


 * Thanks, that's all good. Feel free to add it. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:40, August 11, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I find the picture with Eilistraee and Corellon to be really good. On the same line of thought, I also like http://gold-seven.deviantart.com/art/The-Lady-in-the-Forest-15480981 (same artist, as far as I can tell), as it reflects her appearing to drow who are lost or in need of guidance, as the one in the picture seems to be.


 * I've added the overview to the introductive paragraph.--Tsammarco (talk) 14:19, August 11, 2015 (UTC)


 * I've added some clarification and additional info to the events of the War of the Spider Queen timeline.


 * Since you had thought about it, I also added Eilistraee to the Forum:Nominated Feature Articles page.--Tsammarco (talk) 19:46, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Hello. Eilistraee's new "stats" (portfolio, domains, worshipers etc..) for 5e have been released with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. However the book doesn't give official info about her --or any deity's-- power, and it merely says "god(dess) of X". So, I was wondering what should be done with Eilistraee's ranking: should it be listed as lesser power (what she was before 4e) or should we leave it at "Unknown"?--Tsammarco (talk) 00:19, October 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * I would say leave it unknown or blank. I prefer blank, as there just is no information for it one way or another, and suggests it could be added later. "Unknown" suggests it might be unknown even within the setting. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:17, October 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * Leaving it blank returns the 4e state of Dead power in the main heading, though, and that wouldn't be true--Tsammarco (talk) 01:21, October 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * It does? Oh. Okay, I've restored the Unknown status. However, if 5e isn't going to do deity power levels, then we need something else there for all deities. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:31, October 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * I was wondering about that too. No deity has been attributed a power level in 5e, they're just called god(dess) of X. During the Sundering the power of many deities has changed, according to Ed Greenwood -- for example, he stated that Bane lost quite a lot of power with the recent matter with Tiamat, but it isn't known to what degree. He also said that during the Sundering many deities didn't have success in their gamble for power, with the real winners being those who managed to return. So each deity's ranking seems to be up in the air.--Tsammarco (talk) 01:38, October 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * I've found something on the subject. In 5e, according to the DMG, the power division is as follow:

1)Greater Deities: Entities who can't directly influence the world, except through their avatars (and they do that extremely rarely), whose power is about the same as a lesser god. They can't be confronted or directly sought.

2)Lesser Deities: All powers who are below the Greater ones. They can be directly interacted with, confronted and they can influence the world on their own. This would also include Demipowers, because the bottom of the ranks consists of Quasi-deities (and because the book cites some demipowers, like Lurue. Lolth is mentioned in this category, but it doesn't directly refer to her FR version).

3)Quasi Deities: They include Demigods (as in entities born from a deity and a mortal), Titans (which are said to be creations of the gods), Vestiges of "dead" or forgotten gods. They can't grant divine spells.

This probably means that Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and others would currently be considered "lesser powers". "Intermediate power" is no longer a thing, or so it seems (I guess they would be included in the new "Lesser power" category).--Tsammarco (talk) 18:50, October 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * If the Realms deities aren't specifically ranked as one of these, then I say ignore them. We should only use what Realms sources say. (Personally, I don't like stats for deities.)
 * I've changed Eilistraee's 5e power from "Unknown" to "Deity". Whatever rank she is, she is a deity and the subheading of the infobox should reflect that. That also won't contradict any divine rank that is eventually given to her. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:38, October 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm fine with deities not being given a rank/power too, tbh. I just thought that "Unknown" looked rather badly, being the first information listed in the infobox, but "Deity" will certainly do--Tsammarco (talk) 16:02, October 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * Ed has provided power levels for both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (they are the same exact as before 1375 DR): it's here. Even if what Ed said about Eilistraee, Vhaeraun & Mystra's mutual agreement is not yet canon, the lines regarding their state post 1489 are (as said here, referring to this question)--Tsammarco (talk) 17:37, November 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:59, November 15, 2015 (UTC)

Elder Orb ethnicity
I have a question, I saw in the Drizzt Guide to Underdark that many monster races had ethnicity difference (one good example were the "elder orb" beholder, different by maybe the "hive mother" beholder); so I tried to put under the ethnicity category the various declination of monster races (I did for the beholder, the kuo-toa and the new race of ixzan that I'm creating in these days. I please you and the other administrators to check if my idea work; if no was easy to resettle all like usual — User:Unknown user 11


 * "Ethnicity" is a new entry introduced by User:Lhynard, I think, used for minor differences in races: Chondathan and Chultan humans, for example, similar to European and East African humans. But most kinds of monsters that have subtypes (and even elves and dwarves, etc.) don't have normal ethnicities, but are treated as subraces: whole distinct breeds with different stats. Others are treated as advanced forms, monsters with class levels, or monsters with templates. Each should be treated separately, but are almost always not ethnicities.
 * For vampiric and mutant ixzan, vampire and mutant are part of the race.
 * For beholders, in 3rd/3.5 edition at least, hive mothers are a separate race. I don't know what makes an elder orb; I presume age but it may be an advanced form, which could come under race of even the Age line in the Person template.
 * For kuo-toa, kuo-toa monitors are treated as kuo-toa with Monk class levels in Underdark (sourcebook) and Monster Manual V for 3.5 edition. They're not races at all.
 * On the other hand, 4th edition treats every different kind of monster as a whole different monster, which makes things more confusing.
 * So, I recommend that you ignore the ethnicity entry, unless making an article about a human, and generally only one from 3rd/3.5 edition. For monsters, check what they're treated as in that edition and present it as either race or class, depending on what suits. If you're not sure, just add the race, and mention the other details in the article text. Readers can look up "kuo-toa monitor" for their preferred edition. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:36, June 24, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the thing that bother me was exactly kuo-toa monitor that I had no idea in what differed by normal kind; sure all that were not ethnicity, maybe subrace were a more proper name, like I said up was just an idea for a more clear info box, but if you are not convict I resettle all I changed (Unknown user 11 (talk) 16:15, June 24, 2015 (UTC))

UnseenServantBot Damage
It looks like UnseenServantBot has replaced "charstub" with "stub-char". This has left 266 broken links across the wiki. Did you intend stub-person? ~ Lhynard (talk) 23:56, June 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * I redirected stub-char to stub-person for the nonce. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 00:47, June 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that would be my fault. :\ I've been slowly trying to standardise the stub templates . I'll run the bot over it later to correct it. Thanks for letting me know. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:01, June 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, the bot's fixing it now.


 * Thanks, Moviesign. Though it sounds like you're calling me a "nonce". :D — BadCatMan (talk) 09:23, June 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * (I think that must be a British-ism. ~ Lhynard (talk) 11:45, June 29, 2015 (UTC))


 * I think I got it from Shakespeare, but checking the dictionary I see it has a second, very modern definition of prison slang for a sex offender. That was certainly not my intended meaning. 8-O &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 13:29, June 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree about people stealing perfectly acceptable words and corrupting them! ~ Lhynard (talk) 13:35, June 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * I was thinking of the meaning of a stupid person, as I was when I set the bot renaming the templates, despite me naming the templates in the first place. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:50, June 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * In the US, we'd say "dunce", but even that term is getting to be archaic. Your mileage may vary. ;) &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 13:54, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

Outage
The power supply in my computer seems to have died, so I'm going to be busy fixing it and keeping up with the rest of my commitments. I'm also away from my notes and PDFs. So I'm afraid I won't be able to do much at the FRW for a while. I'll try to keep in touch, but don't wait on me. — BadCatMan (talk) 10:06, July 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry to hear that. Best of luck with repairs and a swift return to normalcy. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 13:06, July 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. On the other hand, I might not have anything better to do than copy-edit here. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:14, July 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * NOOOO! Best of luck to ye. We will hold the fort, good friend :) - Darkwynters (talk) 13:48, July 2, 2015 (UTC)

Fortunately, I found a better replacement in a junker PC, and after a day of rebuilding, I'm back in action. I hope. And now to catch up on everything. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:58, July 3, 2015 (UTC)

Date for Tyranny of Dragons
Hello,

I was just going through the Tyranny of Dragons adventures, preparing to update the wiki with its information, but I am concerned about the date. A dev post said it is 1489 DR, so should I go with that when chronicling the events or just a vague "post-sundering"?--AseirStormwind (talk) 16:36, July 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * TBH, I don't know anything about 5th edition, and am not likely too, so I'm not the best admin to ask. I feel a lot of 5e lore coming on the wiki now is very premature, based on rumour or vague information in adventure modules, without the campaign setting or even actual published sources to back it up. All this could change in the final version of the 5e setting, or different developers may hint at different things. Who is Skerrit/Greg anyway? He isn't a citable source, so I don't want the FRW to rely heavily on that one-word statement. "Post-Sundering" isn't particularly helpful either, as no one seems to know what the Sundering is or when it occurred, AFAICT. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:30, July 7, 2015 (UTC)

Kara-tur Expansion
I love seeing your new pages for Kara-tur! Are you planning on expanding the categories as was done for Faerun and Zakhara ... so there would be West Kara-tur, North Kara-tur, etc? Artemas (talk) 11:53, July 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * At this stage, I'm only doing Foo Nakar as a brief side-project (I have a character from there, and wanted a handy reference). I have distant plans to do the rest of Koryo (and only Koryo), though I may trickle this out in between larger projects. I enjoy doing small towns and villages and low-level NPCs.


 * I hadn't considered new categories; in fact, I'd hoped to avoid that extra layer of categorization, which I find bit unnecessary in Faerûn, and Kara-Tur is less populated with lore to require. I'm not familiar enough with Kara-Tur to break it up in compass points either, but I could examine some maps and work something out. Well, for starters, Koryo would be north-east of everything. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:08, July 18, 2015 (UTC)

Earth on the main page?
Hello! Do you see a chance to also include Earth (element) in the upcoming "DidYouKnow", which I have changed from a redirect into an article? The subject may not be spectacular, but I am rather proud of the work that went into that one, so that would be really nice. Thanks either way. Daranios (talk) 09:17, July 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * Sure, I take requests. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 12:18, July 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * Done. I had to reach for something to say and largely summarised it. Feel free to change it. BTW, anyone can add their own entries. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:33, July 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * Sweet! Thanks! :) Daranios (talk) 12:53, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Positoxin entries
Hi, the positoxins I added are described in Libris Mortis, but the reason I added them was from the info box in A:tEoS. It specifically relates to other positoxins from Libris Mortis but does not elaborate as "it is outside the scope of this adventure." I thought it did relate. If the connection is too thin, please remove them, except for Hsskala which is specific to A:tEoS.

esm3x Esm3x (talk) 13:27, August 11, 2015 (UTC)


 * No, it's fine. The Unrelated article is more of a general notice to readers that an article doesn't contain a direct connection to the Realms, if one is looking for Realmslore. But the article is accepted on the potential that it could be in the Realms. Hsskala implies the existence of other positoxins in the Realms, even if they're not individually confirmed. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:30, August 11, 2015 (UTC)

Stub vs Incomplete?
What's the difference between a stub and an incomplete page?? Artemas (talk) 12:51, August 18, 2015 (UTC)

A stub is typically a one- or two-liner and lacking crucial information, and doesn't tell the reader much. An incomplete article is more developed, tells enough to give the gist, and can stand alone, but there's still more information to be added. I created Incomplete to distinguish the two kinds a bit more, following a system at another wiki, though I've not been too diligent about switching stubs to incompletes. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:56, August 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah, good to know, thanks. Most of the "stubs" I create are "incompletes," so I'll tag them as such from now on. Artemas (talk) 16:44, August 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you want an other's opinion, for me (and was a particularity of my mother language) "incomplete" mean that somewhere there more info to add, "stub" was simply "can't said more about this guy"(Unknown user 11 (talk) 17:01, August 20, 2015 (UTC))


 * Unknown, I'm afraid that's like the very opposite meaning of "stub". The word "stub" means something that has been cut short or something that has been only just started, in both cases leaving only a small fragment of something that could be much larger. "Stub" is a common term on wikis for articles that are little more than an opening line. Stubs are placeholders, made to fill a red link or start an article off for someone else to add information to.


 * For example, "Anna was a fighter in Waterdeep." doesn't tell us when she was active, what she did, or why she's important, that is, it lacks important context. So it's a stub. "Anna was a human fighter in Waterdeep in 1367 DR and a member of the City Watch." is still a stub. "Anna was a human fighter in Waterdeep in 1367 DR and a member of the City Watch. She assisted Khelben in tracking down some marauding orcs." has all necessary context, so it's simply incomplete.


 * Of course, different editors have different judgements on what they would consider a stub. I created Incomplete for articles that have all necessary information, but which were lacking in a lot more important information. For example, Koja covers all information from the cited sources, but skips the novels he appeared in and almost everything there. It's very long and comprehensive, but incomplete. What could be considered incomplete is also up to an editor's judgement.


 * Artemaz and Unknown, I would say most of the articles you create and mark as stubs are incomplete: Artemaz's because they tend to have all the basic information for context, Unknown's because they tend to miss a few details that would make them complete. That depends whether you see it as a starter article (a stub) or not.


 * It's not a big thing, since Incomplete hasn't taken off, Incomplete articles aren't categorised anywhere, and it's up to your judgement. As long as they're marked as needing more work, it's fine. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:42, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

Was an interesting clarification explanation. Like I said before in my country incomplete had a more strong meaning, like "you miss VERY important information", "stub" like you said about my articles, "you need add more details". All of course was only a cultural divergence, (Unknown user 11 (talk) 13:05, August 21, 2015 (UTC))

Portable Infoboxes
We’re reaching out to a few of our top communities, hoping to get you on board with the migration to the new infobox markup. And we have tools to help!

‘’’Why we’re doing this’’'

Simply put: Most current infobox structure translates very poorly to mobile experiences, and indeed any device that doesn’t use desktop-style displays. On desktops and laptops, they often look amazing. The problem is that Wikia’s traffic is trending mobile.

There is an important graph from our forum post about infoboxes a couple weeks back, and I want to share it here as well:



Mobile is the future. Not just for Wikia, but for the web as a whole. Take a look at the recent trends and future growth predictions for mobile traffic - it's staggering.

We partnered with the Wikia community to create this new markup to make sure that your hard work can be displayed on mobile devices (as well as any future technologies) easily and without any new coding conventions. It’ll take some effort up front, to be sure, but we’re here to help, and the work you put in now will pay for itself tenfold in the future.

‘’’Tools we’ve designed to ease the process’’’

We’ve enabled two new features on your community. One is a tool for migrating the “old” infobox code to the new markup. It identifies templates on your wikia that look like infobox templates and places a box on the right rail of the template page. When you click the “Generate draft markup” button in this box, it opens a new tab containing a draft of your infobox using the new markup.

The second is a new feature on Special:Insights that will highlight which infoboxes on your wikia have not been migrated to the new infobox markup. It’s fairly intuitive - you can click on the infobox title link itself to see the old markup, or simply click the “Convert!” button on the right, which performs the same action as the “Generate draft markup” button.

This is our help page for the new markup. I’ll help get things rolling by converting a template or two as an example if you’d like me to, as well as watching this post for any questions. Pinkachu ( talk ) 18:47, August 25, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Pinkachu, I'm jumping in here because I'll be spearheading the effort to convert our templates to the new format. There is a forum discussion about it, complete with links to examples and a side-by-side demo I managed to get working. I'm concerned that the new scheme will break a lot of the DPL functions that I have used to enhance our wiki, so if you have any insights on that score, please let me know. (The side-by-side demo does not show citations in the new infoboxes, for example.) &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 21:17, August 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Pinkachu, thanks for coming around to let us know. Yes, Moviesign's our code and template wizard. I'm happy to see an improved mobile display for better use of our wiki in tabletop gaming, but my own Android pad browser is happy enough showing Monobook (which I still use) and Oasis. So while mobile use may be up, the need for the mobile skin doesn't seem as great.


 * Looking at those examples and Moviesign's work, my biggest concern right now is that the new infobox resizes images to the maximum horizontal length for the screen. This inflates the image too much, cutting off a lot of the image in the shrunk-down infobox. Shown in full, the image can be too big for the screen sometimes, especially in the horizontal orientation. Also, blown up, it loses a lot of resolution. We have some very tiny game-icon images (like at Abazigal) that will look awful at such a scale. I hope that images can be set to a fixed size, to no larger than then actual size, or to no bigger than the confines of the screen. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:14, August 27, 2015 (UTC)


 * See the Forum:New infobox scheme for exciting news :) &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 02:38, September 11, 2015 (UTC)

Source block in infoboxes
As far as I'm concerned, if there is only one source and not likely to ever be more, then the Source block at the bottom of the infobox is okay. For things like Creatures and Deities, the consensus was (I think) that we'd like to see individual citations for items in the infobox because there are usually multiple sources, but I don't see anything bad about noting a single source in a Source block in the infobox. My 2 copper.

Oh, and all captions will be rendered in italics once the infobox conversion is complete. It won't hurt to put in wiki markup for now though. I don't believe it will reverse italics back to normal. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 15:11, September 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmm, okay. At Person, Creature, and others, the source and page entries are noted as deprecated. I've been removing the source entries wherever I see them and replacing them with footnotes. I've felt that regular footnote references are sufficient for infoboxes, while the source line could be confusing if/when multiple sources are required for an infobox (which I recall was the reason for abandoning them in the first place. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:45, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

Main page
Hey. On the Big Bang Theory wiki (and a handful of others) they have a larger version of their wordmark as a sort of banner or header on their main page. I do have larger/better-quality images of the wordmark if you want to try that out. Just let me know. Also, if there are any other graphic-y requests or tweaks, don't hesitate to ask. -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 11:50, September 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay. When I redesigned the Main Page, I focused on cramming as much as lore-oriented content into the central column as possible, so I pushed the logo to the side column to save space. Since it was only 250 pixels wide, that worked out fine.


 * As it is, the current logo size and dimensions perfectly fit the spot in the top panel in the Oasis skin, while the second logo appearing in the quote box is unnecessary. In Monobook, we have File:Wiki.png (or File:Wiki-Fflar.png) in the top-left corner. A new logo adjusted to those dimensions would be great for Monobook users, perhaps "Forgotten" stacked over "Realms" over "Wiki". Then I could remove the second logo in both skins, reduce redundancy, and free up space. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:22, September 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi again. The new favicon looks great, but I think it'll look better with a transparent background. I've created a favicon using your design but with a transparent background. Lemme know if you wanna try it and I can get the file to you somehow :) -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 11:38, September 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but User:Jandor's already working on a transparent icon. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:40, September 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well I have it if you need it :) -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 11:43, September 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi again! i've been working on an idea for the monobook logo. This is a just a draft at the moment, but let me know if you like it. I've kept the artwork (for a bit of consistency) but updated the text. I still need to finish it up (colour correct and neaten edges etc). It's here - File:Mono wordmark draft.png. Thoughts? -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 13:20, October 1, 2015 (UTC)


 * Nice work, though I was hoping to get rid of Fflar and the fiend (I've been looking at that for so many years) and just reshape our logo to better fit the box. I think the N is located too high, and the letters could be spread a bit more vertically to better fill the space. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:54, October 1, 2015 (UTC)


 * Brilliant feedback. That's just the kind of constructive criticism I needed to hear. I'll make the adjustments and get back to you. I was reading up and I think monobook wordmarks can be squares. If this is true, it would make sense to have ours as a square (there would be less white space either side of the logo). Speak soon. -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 16:34, October 1, 2015 (UTC)


 * Here are the improved word-marks, with your adjustments. Without the 'N' as large, the line at the top had nowhere to go so I added a diamond at the end. I've also made it into a square, which I believe will still work.


 * I've also provided four color variations, so you can pick which one suits the palette of the wiki best. I think no.2 is best.


 * -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 19:01, October 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, I didn't have a problem with the size of the N in the previous wordmark, I meant I felt it could be shifted lower down. As it was, the line running across the top of the box meets the top bar of the F, but only the second bar of the N. Meanwhile, the base of the F hangs down quite low, but the base of the N is only a bit below the other others. I feel it is rather unbalanced, though looking at the official logo, I see how much the letters vary in size and position. I think the N should be as big as the S is in the original logo, at the same alignment, or else at the size/position you've used in the updated logos. I like how you've filled the space with the diamond/arrow.


 * Those updated logos all look great. You might go a bit crazier on the letters of "Wiki", like a larger W for emphasis, as they seem a bit neat in comparison. Also, there's a noticeable smear repeated three times in the bottom-right corner, where the texture was cloned/copied-pasted.


 * I like the lighter shades, but would pick 2 or 3. Either way, it should match the final 3rd-edition-style logo. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:43, October 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hey! I've tweaked it again. File:Monobook logo.png.
 * Cleaned up the smudge, made the 'Wiki' letters bigger and more interesting. I've also made it the correct dimensions (150x150).
 * Can you delete the four color variations and the original draft I uploaded please? Thanks :)
 * -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 22:24, October 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * That's perfect, thanks. Sorry, I missed a chance to get back to you earlier on this and it slipped my mind. I'll delete those drafts. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:49, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

dropping in
I'm just dropping in to say that I'm currently studying J.R.R. Tolkien's works and that eventually I plan to reread all the Forgotten Realms novels I've ever read in the past. I'm curious as to how much Tolkien influence there is in Forgotten Realms. Then I might be able to contribute more to this Wiki. Gringo300 (talk) 13:22, September 24, 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay. (The last time we spoke was in 2013, so it took me a while to work out who you were and why you were telling me.) I'd say Tolkien has little-to-no influence on the Forgotten Realms other than in the way D&D and all fantasy fiction since has mimicked his work, as medieval fantasy with elves and dwarves and orcs. Apart from a few minor borrowings (elves journeying west to an island in the sea), the tone, themes, and flavour are very different. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:07, September 25, 2015 (UTC)


 * I would just only add the obvious The Icewind Dale Trilogy books that are so much copy-similar to the Trilogy of The Ring ([SPOILER ALERT] Both have sinister towers:Cryshal-Tirith, Minas Tirith, a malicious object trying to mess with people's mind, a ranger, a dwarf, a firish-demon-dragon that killed a mani character, that character is "ressurected" later, a jounrey back to his previous roots for a halfling, etc). However some tropes cannot be helped but being eventually bored with one way or another. Apart from that, that writer matured throughout his writing carrier (this is easily observed) and many more authors after him have cotributed to FR. &mdash;Jandor (talk) 14:05, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

Deleted images
You edited my page, and I'm not upset but confused? I own the copyrights of the photos, and the content is my game room, which is solely dedicated to playing D&D? The only activity the rom is used for is my Forgotten Realms campaign? – User:Monkplayer


 * Let's discuss this here. BTW, use four tildes, ~, to give a signature and date. Signing off on posts lets people know who wrote it.


 * That's a fantastic game room, well done. Mine is just my PC and Firefox browser. :) Okay, the copyright issue is addressed, never mind that. However, it's still not relateable to the wiki and it doesn't illustrate Forgotten Realms or D&D lore. There's no purpose to them that I could see. The FRW or Wikia is not here to host images for private use or advertising. So I decided to remove them. Your images are already hosted in several places on the web anyway. — BadCatMan (talk) 00:51, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

Okay that's totally fine, and no worries! Thanks for keeping me "on the straight and narrow!" The site is really useful to my campaign too! – User:Monkplayer


 * Okay then, thanks for your understanding. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:08, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

CSS work
Can I help you with anything, or are you having fun? :) &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 13:51, October 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't call it fun, only hacking in the inelegant clumsy coding sense. My aim was to remove the "Main Page"/"Home" page title that appears on Main Page, so I could shift some of the front page content up to be more visible in the Monobook and Oasis skins. Oasis in particular wastes so much screan space. I have some Main Page adjustments in mind.


 * The suggested solution from MediaWiki didn't work, so I did what I always do, and stole Wookieepedia's code. For some reason, the line in MediaWiki:Common.css‎‎ only applied to Monobook, but I was able to suppress the page title there. I had no such luck with the Wikia/Oasis skin at MediaWiki:Wikia.css. It doesn't help that I don't know what all the lines actually do. I did manage to lose the Edit and Talk buttons and make Home invisible but not actually gone, so I rolled back and gave up.


 * So now I call it a night and leave it to the experts. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 14:01, October 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm no expert, but I might tinker with it. You want to get rid of the big Home, the big page count, and the edit/talk buttons? &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 14:21, October 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * There, is that what you wanted? &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 14:43, October 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * That did it, thanks. I really only wanted to remove the big Home, though. The edit/talk buttons should stay for users who use the Oasis/Wikia skin, if we have the option. I can go either way on the big pagecount (and remove the small one in the first box) and social media links. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:51, October 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * I should be able to fix that. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 15:02, October 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's as close as I can come. Unfortunately, I cannot edit the layout of that header, otherwise I would put the social media buttons to the right of the edit buttons. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 15:12, October 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * That's just great, thanks. — BadCatMan (talk) 15:17, October 10, 2015 (UTC)


 * Wow, great work guys! &mdash;Jandor (talk) 15:20, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

New goliath info found
I found an article written by Erik Scott de Bie and Thomas M. Costa on the Candlekeep Forum. The article (here) has loads of realms-specific info on goliaths.

The info was put into two PDFs. The second PDF (here) contains all the goliath info. I will get to work adding this new info to the article.

I just wanted to give you a heads up. Because it's written by official authors/designers we can consider it canon. Should I cite the PDFs or the Candlekeep forum post?

Thanks -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 15:40, October 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * I can't get them to load right now. But we only consider Ed Greenwood automatically canon. A lot of published authors release their homebrew and stuff that couldn't get published, so they're not considered canon. At best, they can be considered for clarifications to resolve an issue (e.g., Thultyrl), or linked to as further information (e.g., Ouranalathra). — BadCatMan (talk) 15:45, October 13, 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah fair enough. In that case, this information confirms the speculation regarding the use of Dethek. It also confirms the presence of goliaths in the Plain of Standing Stones but says that Thella-Lu, does not exist in Faerûn. I will add some more notes. -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 17:25, October 13, 2015 (UTC)

Interwiki templates
I noticed you removed the interwiki template on Deekin Scalesinger's page and moved the link to 'External Links'. Does this mean that Category:Interwiki_templates are redundant? Was there an agreement/foum/policy to not use them? If the wiki has decided not to use them, I will gladly yield but I personally like them and think they should be used. Thanks -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 22:50, October 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, it was force of habit. I forgot you'd been developing these. We started discussing this somewhere before, but I can't recall where. There's no agreement/policy to use one or the other, it's just a matter of competing styles. That's the way of wikis: editors introduce an idea, try it out, and see if it gets taken up by the community.


 * Me, I prefer the simpler links that can sit in an External Links appendix in a noticeable way. It's a style I've seen and used at other wikis, and which Wikipedia itself employs. I find I easily overlook the little boxes that sit way off to the right.


 * I started developed the in-line style back in March 2013 with BGW, and I've been applying it frequently to BG and NWN1/NWN2/NWO pages ever since, slowly phasing out the older little boxes. As I recall, only Wikipedia article was really being used at the time, and the few others that were around then only barely. I didn't notice we had them for anything other than Wikipedia.


 * Since our styles have come to a conflict, it may be worth taking it to the forum for a community verdict (though things are pretty hectic right now and a lot of projects and discussions are getting buried). — BadCatMan (talk) 01:06, October 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * Not to wprry, I can see where you are coming from, having it in 'external links' does make it neater. I'll leave it be for now and might bring it up in the forum at some point in the future.
 * -Thomas Love http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png [ talk ] 02:33, October 17, 2015 (UTC)

Lizard Marsh/Tavaray
Hello,

I just edited an entry for "Lizard Marsh" which currently redirects to Taravay. I was wondering if you would want to separate the two (remove the forwarding link) since the Lizard Marsh should now have it's own information?

I have not done a lot of editing on this site, so I hope this is the correct way of going about this.

Also, the citation I used was for Dragon Magazine 126, but the information actually came from the Supplement provided later on. I wasn't a 100% sure how to reference the supplement, so you may want to double check that part. :)

Thank you for such a wonderful Wikia. I've been using it for years and I hope my small contribution is at least a small token of my appreciation for the site. :)

Sincerely, Bill W (User:Captainbill47)


 * Hi, welcome back to the wiki. I've deleted Lizard Marsh, so it's now clear for you to remake as an independent article. Obviously with canon information written in your words, not copied from the source. Moviesign has started helping you with the citation issue on your Talk page.


 * And thanks for your appreciation. It's good to hear that people are using it. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:28, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Background Image
Whatever you just did to the background image, please undo it, it looks TERRIBLE when you scroll down a long page and it fades to a dirty pink color. Give me map all the way down please! &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 04:58, October 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * Wikia recommended fading. I didn't like the map image repeating over and over. I chose an average colour from a light section of the map; it looks a pale, parchmenty brown to me, though I'm not married to it. I can redo with fading to a new colour/transparency, or else we can lock it so it doesn't move. What do you like? — BadCatMan (talk) 05:04, October 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * What reasons did they give in favor of fading? It doesn't even go to the bottom of the Main Page! I like the map all the way to the bottom. If you don't want it to repeat, then leave it fixed in place. The pink/brown/whatever is so dull and boring. Past my bedtime. G'nite &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 05:16, October 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * So as to stop hard cuts between the background image and background colour, so it blends seamlessly from one to the other (as Help:Background). It's common on the more detailed wikis; Wookieepedia does it (yeah, that's my inspiration for everything). Most just don't have such a detailed background. Eh, fine, I'll change it. — BadCatMan (talk) 05:57, October 19, 2015 (UTC)

Patrolling New Pages
Hey, I used to patrol pages and then stopped. I'm sorry about that. I'll try to start up patrolling again. I just did a handful today. I usually work from the bottom up and do between five and ten. You seem to have no method to your madness. :) Do you actually have a method? Or do you want to divide them up more fairly? It seems like I've been left mostly new pages by User:Artemaz, which, while plentiful, are short and generally needing of little more than a comma here or there. ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:37, November 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks.
 * Heh, no, I have a method, but it's a complex one. First, I go through Random Page a few times to ensure I get some existing articles cleaned (which I really want to do, except the overwhelming flood of new articles gets in the way).
 * Then I hit Special:NewPages. I might warm up by patrolling a few from regular users like User:Unknown user 11 that usually need copy-editing. Then I get in deep and patrol the anonymous-made articles, if there are any, because they're most likely to be trouble, and ones by new users, who'll need some guidance. If there's an ongoing issue to discuss or the user keeps adding more stuff, I might not mark patrolled, and just leave it until later. For example, User:Gem Hound made mongrelfolk, and though I've edited it, I've not marked it as patrolled yet, reminding me to check it later.
 * After them, I go back to the regulars. For Unknown user 11, I try to tackle the most recent first, to quickly correct any misconceptions and demonstrate any thing that needs to be shown while they are working on that topic. Then I go back to older ones. Unfortunately, UU11 makes new articles faster than I can correct them, and I have to miss a day or two a week, so a large backlog usually builds up.
 * Very large articles and those that require some fact-checking I sometimes leave and come back to later when I have more time or inclination. For example, the anon currently writing up large dragon pages.
 * To take a small break now and then, and to check up on what other regulars are doing, I'll do new articles from skilled regular editors like you, Artemaz, Moviesign, Coswig, Daranios, and Darkwynters. They're usually safe, but there'll be a typo here and there. Because they are safe, I don't try to patrol all of these.
 * By the end of the week (Friday, Saturday, Sunday), I start preparing the Did You Knows, so I pick out Eli the Tanner (who does a reliable one new article a week), and good-sized articles on a variety of topics from each logged-in editor.
 * And then I usually run out of time for wiki work and call it done, sadly. — BadCatMan (talk) 04:11, November 24, 2015 (UTC)


 * That was quite the thorough answer. :) But do you want to divide up any of the new pages? or shall I just work from the bottom up as I've done in the past? ~ Lhynard (talk) 04:29, November 24, 2015 (UTC)


 * I believe working from the top, more or less, is more effective, as it is more likely to show the article creator improvements they can make while they are still on that project. Otherwise, let's just share the duties on anons, newbies, and UU11, and work on what we can, when we can. If we see a new article that has been marked as patrolled, then we will know it has been, well, patrolled.
 * And thanks for helping out on this. It may not be much, but I really want to vet all content coming into the wiki, to at least maintain the quality of our content, to keep it accurate, tidy, and readable. Faulty content sneaking in unseen was a big problem for the wiki in the past, so I seem to have fallen into the role of Wiki Gatekeeper. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 05:47, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

Osse
I'm sorry to trouble you but I couldn't find anywhere else to ask my question.

Many of the continents like Osse have very little information about them. I wrote a story set in Osse and from what little there was to go on, I decided to give myself free reign. It mentions about being inhabited by Druids and I included Druidik kingdoms but not taking up the whole continent.

Since there is virtually no information on that continent, I was wondering what the rules are about creating kingdoms on Toril. Does someone have to create something or is there some procedure becuase if I have something to add if my story is approved? KeredDrahcir (talk) 14:49, December 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm sure Badcatman will elaborate, but no homebrew (information created by fans) is allowed on the Forgotten Realms wiki. Artemaz (talk) 14:54, December 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Ker, Art is correct... we do not allow homebrew materials on this wiki. - Darkwynters (talk) 18:12, December 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * That's right, the Forgotten Realms Wiki only covers canon and licensed material, not homebrew or fan-lore. Try one of the forums like Candlekeep to talk about making homebrew lore for Osse. Many fans regard the place as being inspired by Australia; being Australian, I have a lot of ideas of my own for a fantasy version of my country.
 * Canon-wise, there's a brief hint of Osse at the Class Chronicles: Eastern Classes article and a character in the novel of Lady of Poison, which details the culture a bit more. Our own Osse article needs work (I smell a future project for me).
 * A good place to ask a general question is at our Forum. — BadCatMan (talk) 06:30, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I've polished and added to the Osse article, which should be a good starting point for finding out more. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:31, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

Caldreth's Cobbling
Can you reference me a page/source where I can learn how citations work on FR Wiki pages. Thanks. – User:‎BoramereWrath


 * Hi, welcome to the wiki, thanks for getting involved. Another admin, User:Moviesign, gave some advice on references and other things at your Talk page. I hope that covers everything. We've polished up the Caldreth's Cobbling article, so take a close look at the code and see how things work. Merry Christmas! — BadCatMan (talk) 12:36, December 25, 2015 (UTC)