Talk:Utter East

Surely the Ffolk mentioned here are not the same people from the Moonshae Isles. Can someone verify this? Artemaz (talk) 12:53, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * Surprising as it is, they seem to be the same. Check out the Scouring of the Utter East link with an excerpt from The Grand History of the Realms and the history in the Ffolk article. Daranios (talk) 19:28, April 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * Hmmm that link mentions Grand Caliph Arash bint Sanjar as the ruler of Zakhara in the Year of the Nine Stars ... which is 657 DR ... but the Grand Caliph page here on the wiki says that that title wasn't even around until roughly the mid 9th century DR. Artemaz (talk) 00:35, April 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yep, the same Ffolk, dating back to Faces of Deception. And the Northmen are there too. Interestingly, that GHotR piece was written after and probably inspired by our Utter East Redux project, yet still managed to be contradictory and unsupporting to what we'd found. Welcome to the Utter East, a congerie of disparate sources in different media, all bar the GHotR made in 1998, yet with each one bit contradicting or not supporting another.


 * Well, Al-Qadim material is undated, but can it be shifted back two centuries or more? Probably not. Arash could be from a former lineage of Grand Caliphs. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:08, April 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * This thread says more or less all about it. The first Grand Caliph of Huzuz lived 600 to less than 500 years before the date of the campaign setting (with a definite 18-Caliphs-line to follow), so there's not that much freedom. I like the interpretation that Arash bint Sanajar was some ruler from Zakhara taking a grand title (Zakharans will be like that ;-)), even though "ruler of the Enlightened Throne of Zakhara" sounds like one of the offical Grand Caliphs. Daranios (talk) 07:23, April 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * The passage in Grand History is an in-universe tale about something that happened centuries ago. The simplest explanation is that it's mistaken: maybe the Mar writers used modern titles for an earlier ruler (Arash is a man's name, but described as a daughter, "bint", of Sanjar; unless he's trans-something). Anyway, it's too uncertain a reference to alter Zakharan history over. — BadCatMan (talk) 07:47, April 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * The fact of the matter is that the novels and sourcebooks are full of errors and contradictions, some caused by mistakes and others by laziness to research earlier sourcebooks and novels. Grand History is also only pseudo-official, right? Wasn't it basically the pet project of a fan that they decided to publish? It was not well-checked to remove or clarify inconsistencies.


 * I think it is good for us to document all such cases and write the articles in what we think makes the most sense, footnoting the discrepancies. I think it is ok for us to make blanket decisions, such as, "Al-Qadim will be set at this date for the purposes of this wiki," as long as we discuss it. We could equally say, for the purposes of this wiki, such and such is considered an error.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 12:50, April 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * It was originally a fan project that was chosen to be published, yes, but it was significantly added to with a lot of new history and vignettes written by various Realms authors, including Ed Greenwood, and it advanced the official setting by 10 years to be the lead-in to 4th edition. It couldn't be more official. Errors in chronology I've found date back to the original sourcebooks. And the new errors are just like the old errors. It's the art choices that are terrible. :) So, this Grand Caliph is just another continuity error we have to deal with. As Lhynard says, we document the lore as it is, and note a potential error and some possible solutions in the Appendix. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:02, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

Maps
I'm not sure where you want to put this tidbit, so I'll just state it here. The Utter East appears on pages ix, and 11 of The Forgotten Realms Atlas. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 15:05, April 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * Just to be completely sure: The Atlas contains this map? Or if it is "only" a similar one, are there any discrepancies? Thanks a lot! Daranios (talk) 17:10, April 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * No, it just mentions the Utter East on two maps, one of which is File:Faerûn 2nd edition.gif (see the lower-right corner). The other map shows Faerûn, the Hordelands, Shou Lung, and the top of Zakhara (which is blank and labeled "New Lands"). "The Utter East" is written along the coastline below Ulgarth. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 17:22, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

Development
Obviously, I've begun to heavily develop this page and explain the Utter East's quirks and mixed history. I'm rather pleased with how it's shaping up, both in-universe and out. However, at this stage, I'm only planning to cover a sourcebooks-only, top-canon depiction of the region. That should give a good, canon basis for further development, either by me or someone else, later down the track.

I suspected the above unsourced map may have appeared in Realms of Mystery. I'll try to hunt down and buy a copy of my own to confirm this. — BadCatMan (talk) 07:30, April 12, 2016 (UTC)


 * Just a note: The Grand History of the Realms reused all its artwork from previous 3e sourcebooks, so most images only loosely suit events, and some are complete irrelevant. Page 95, "The Scouring of the Utter East" has one taken from Oriental Adventures (3rd edition) for Rokugan. I don't feel it suits, there's no Japanese-style culture here, so I'm ignoring it. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:27, April 12, 2016 (UTC)


 * This looks really nice now! Daranios (talk) 09:53, April 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm amazed at how this page has grown. Great work guys! Artemaz (talk) 12:53, April 13, 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I've got an urge to keep going on it now. :) I let rip the sage/storyteller style, and I like how it turned out. — BadCatMan (talk) 14:26, April 13, 2016 (UTC)

Five Kingdoms
As far as categories go, do we need "Inhabitants of the Five Kingdoms" or is "Inhabitants of the Utter East" sufficient? Artemaz (talk) 13:25, April 14, 2016 (UTC)

I'd rather just use "Utter East" and have "Five Kingdoms" as a redirect or alternate name. The Five Kingdoms are too ill-defined (seriously, I can only confirm four of the Five, and have several options for the fifth; I may just list eight) and they're far from being any kind of cohesive political or cultural body. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:42, April 14, 2016 (UTC)

Names on a Map...
So, I found a map (here: https://www.google.com/search?q=map+of+zakhara&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS744US744&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixsO3XkOXYAhVshq0KHcANBGQQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=615#imgrc=cml-pn6szuy9jM:) that shows two other countries in the general area. There's a little country on a peninsula west of Konigheim and the Treggi Jungle called Sragadha; and another little nation in the Yehimals call Langdarma that is east of Konigheim, but across quite a few mountains. Langdarma is on the wiki, but is not really linked with any of the existing regions (is not listed as part of Kara-tur, Zakhara, or Faerun under Utter East or Southeast Region). Sragadha is nowhere to be found. Question is, should Langdarma be listed as part of the Utter East? The page says it is inhabited by Mar humans from the area, which makes since, and it cannot be easily connected with Kara-tur in the same way; and should someone look in Sragadha? Because for all I know, it isn't even canon. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 01:30, January 20, 2018 (UTC)


 * Langdarma is canon, appearing in Faces of Deception, and it's close relation to events and culture in the Utter East means its best treated as part of the UE. It doesn't yet appear in this article because I haven't yet given the novel any serious wiki attention (I'm taking a source-by-source approach to developing this difficult area), though it's on my list. I'm not sure whether to treat it as a country, a village, or just a valley at this stage.


 * Sragadha, the Treggi Jungle, and several other locations on that map are homebrew/fanon, concocted by fan mapmaker Mark Taylor/Markustay (mostly after conversations with me). IIRC, he also altered the geography significantly. So the map isn't at all canonical. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:17, January 20, 2018 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for clearing things up. SilverTiger12 (talk) 03:21, January 20, 2018 (UTC)