Template talk:Tel-quessir races

Including Eladrin subraces
I'd like to include the Eladrin subraces in order to keep it comprehensive and useful. Though they may technically be "eladrin", they are still referred to as Moon Elves, Star Elves, and Sun Elves. Therefore, one would expect these three races to be in a template or article referring to elves. Furthermore, the "elves" are directly descended from the Eladrin. Thoughts? 03:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps then we should create a single template called elven and eladrin subraces? Or maybe include the "fey races" template I created alongside either of the two templates. I'm open to suggestions but I think that we should make a strong connection between the eladrin and gold elf or sun elf articles that didn't already exist. Niirfa-sa 04:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Since 4E FR essentially ignores previous Realms history in terms of the history of the elven races, I think it more prudent to keep the 1-3E and 4E templates separate, so as to avoid confusing new readers. Gabeth 08:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Are drow not also an elven subrace?


 * Actually, 4E FR largely does not retcon previous Realms history. This can be a source of confusion, but overall the Realms history has not changed.  Instead, the designers chose to introduce large Realms-shaking events like the Spellplague and Abeir colliding back with Toril as a way to explain and introduce the new material.  But the history itself hasn't changed.
 * It can be hard to make a distinction between the game-mechanics and the lore, especially when the 4E content itself isn't always consistent. But to most people, "Sun Elves" and "Wood Elves" are still Elves, and in fact they are correct.  Here's how it works: the overall group is called "Elves".  Beneath that you have three major groupings: "Elves", "Drow", and "Eladrin".  These three groupings are primarily for game-mechanic purposes.  For instance, both Moon Elves and Wild Elves speak and write elven, and they both consider themselves "Tel'Quessir" (meaning Of the People).  Evermeet is still a home to "elven" people, including wild elves, wood elves, lythari, good elves, etc...
 * The fact that "elves" refers to both the overall group, and also one of the sub-groups is the cause of much confusion.  15:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have read the new FRCG, as well as essentially everything in 3E as well as a heavy amount of 2E information. Retcon might have been a bit of a strong word, but lets look back at Forgotten Realms history. Green elves and dark elves first land in the Realms in –27000 DR by way of the world of Fairie (not the Feywild). This is also the time of the legendary dark elf nation of Ilythiiri, who will end up giving the Netherest the legendary Netherscrolls (in a roundabout way). In -25400 DR, the first sun and moon elves (gold and silver, as they called themselves), fled Fairie due to the sheer danger of that place. One would assume the avariel, star, and aquatic elves came along at this time, though I cannot find the exact dates for their particular arrivals. The last was of course the wood elves, which are actually a blend of sun, moon, and green elf ancestors. All of this is in AGHotR, of course.
 * Contrast this with the new realms. On page 5 of the FRCG, the Feywild comes "returns" to existence (when no prior sources suggested it was even in elven myths) after a cosmic rearrangement. As you said, the word "Elf" is commonly used for your "eladrin" as well as "elves," in part because of a cultural decision to refer to themselves (the "superior" moon, sun, and star elves) as part of a greater heritage. The fact that in the past they shared a number of blended cultures, along with a common home (the world of Faerie), means they're far more related than the FRCG suggests. I'd argue that we needlessly add game mechanics to a predominantly 2nd and 3rd-edition wiki focused mainly on history when we decide that cultures that were far more homogenous and blended in the richer past history of the Realms have no place after adding a handful of 4th edition information. I'm not opposed to have 4th edition information in the wiki (since it is still Realmslore), but so long as it is clearly marked for easy understanding. This template seems to leave that unclear, which is my biggest problem with it. If a player from the 2E or 3E era hopped on the website and came upon the template, they'd by scratching their heads because everything they've known up until this year said elves were a number of mortal races belonging to a single species of sentient being and eladrin were beings from a plane distinct from the Material Plane/petitioners to the Elven Gods/etc.
 * I apologize for this being so long-winded, so I'll just reiterate: In the past, the elven races were all distinct but still closely related. In 4E and this 4th Edition template, a gulf was opened between the "greater elves aka eladrin" and the "inferior elves aka 'normal elves'", due to some decision that is vague at best. By using this template, we'll be implying that 4th edition information (as sparse as it is in contrast to 3rd and particularly 2nd edition) is the predominant/sponsored edition for this wiki when in fact this wiki is devoted to every edition. My recommendation would be to expand the template to allow those unfamiliar with 4th edition Realms to have an option to use it without any confusion. We're here to cater to everyone who is interested in the Realms, not just those interested in 4th edition. Gabeth 17:25, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand where you're coming from here but the wiki's format is not devoted to all editions. At the moment it is predisposed towards the 3.5 ruleset with characters listed by races and classes that exist in that ruleset and information most relevant to 1372 DR. Both 1E and 2E do have a smaller impact on the wiki's format and it's useless denying it.
 * Furthermore, regardless of whether or not you like it, the 4E information is supposed to be more accurate. This wiki is not meant for showing what's your personal preference, but what is accurate from a lore perspective. Eladrin and elves, as of now, are the proper names for two distinct but related races. Niirfa-sa 18:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My complaints might be inspired by my own opinion, I'll grant you that. However, your remark does nothing to solve the problem of inconsistancy between editions and reader comprehension of the wiki. If we don't make allowances in certain matters, then we confuse and mislead. Gabeth 19:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

(unindenting) Please take a look at the new template, and let me know if it seems acceptable. Not whether you think it's perfect, but whether you think it is acceptable... something that you can live with and that seems to not create confusion for either 3E or 4E readers. I've grouped the elven sub-races by their mechanical sub-types, but the grouping is only implied. 3E readers won't get confused, and 4E readers will understand the grouping. 19:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I certainly don't want to be difficult and create hard feelings. Here is something I had in mind that takes what we both want. Feel free to edit as you wish: Here. Gabeth 19:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think both are good, though I think SkyeNi's works best, mainly because I still don't see a reason to list 3.5 and 4e as "separate." Here's another possible solution, though I'll admit it has a complexity that may be undesirable. Niirfa-sa 00:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've a question to the last template, there you had Dark Elves -> Drow/Ilythiiri. My point is, whats with the Dark Elves created through Lady Penitent series? They are no longer drow and most of them never had been Ilythiiri (in fact they once were Miyeritari)? Is there anything about this "new" race in the 4. Ed Campaign Guide? Or are there still only drow as Dark Elves? Historicus 11:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no information on the dark elf/drow differences in the FRCG. We'll probably find more information in the upcoming Player's Guide. 18:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In the sourcebook Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves they are referred to simply as "dark elves". It's only when they are cast out by Corellon does their skin turn ebony and they become Drow.  Likewise, there is also a reference to dark elves in the last Khelben Blackstaff novel: some of the transformed elves are actually dark elves (dating back to before the Descent) and at the time would have reverted back to Drow (since the Lady Penitent series hadn't concluded yet).  So there are a couple of references to dark elves outside of the Lady Pentitent series. I agree that we shouldn't call them Ilythiiri though (that's a nation, not a race).   21:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, wouldn't "dark elves" be more appropriately eladrin or elves rather than drow? Most of what makes drow unique is their adaptations to the Underdark and affinity for shadow magic. Remove that, any you basically have a recolored elf. Niirfa-sa 07:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)