Talk:Knell beetle

I don't have the second source, but in Monster Manual 3 ed., these are not insects; they were mutated from insects. They also are said to have only six appendages, yet this article claims 12. Does Tearing of the Weave modify this? If not, I think this is a case where the artist did not follow the description, and the image should not be considered canonical. ~ Lhynard (talk) 17:22, December 30, 2017 (UTC)


 * Huh? They're of the Vermin type, a creature type reserved for insects, and they descended from giant beetles, so there's nothing else they could be. And they're obviously insects. MMIII twice describes them as having twelve limbs: "This ten-legged, beetlelike creature", "the twelve-limbed vermin". The artwork matches the description precisely. — BadCatMan (talk) 00:11, December 31, 2017 (UTC)


 * I missed the part about ten legs in MMIII then. Sorry. So yes, I agree that the artwork matches.


 * But no, vermin are not insects exclusively. Centipedes, spiders, and scorpions are vermin, yet none of them are insects. Insects always have six appendages in the real world, and there is no reason to think this different on Faerûn. In fact, the 2e Monstrous Manual excluded spiders and centipedes from its insects category.


 * The definition of vermin in 3e has to do with their mindless, instinct-only-driven nature, not on their being insects. 3e goes on to clarify: "This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates." The advice for whether to call a custom monster vermin has to do with whether the creature has an intelligence score or not.


 * Looking at the entry for knell beetles in MMIII, it calls them "beetlelike" but not beetles and "insectoid" but not insects. It calls them "an offshoot of giant beetles that were long ago warped by&hellip; magic&hellip; energy."


 * So, from "MMIIII", I think that knell beetles are vermin but neither beetles nor insects. The fact that they have 12 appendages seems to confirm this. They've been transformed into something "other".


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 06:01, December 31, 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, I wasn't aware that insects were a specific type. :\ What I meant is "bug". :) Or, better yet, "arthropod". (Although in some cases D&D is saddled with outdated or mistaken conceptions, it seems to know the distinction here.) However, it's possible to argue that the knell beetle, named a beetle, is a mutant insect with extra legs. Genetically, it has insect heritage. Eh. I'll revise the article to clarify it as an insect-like arthropod. — BadCatMan (talk) 06:27, December 31, 2017 (UTC)