Talk:Drow

Alignment
Drows are not all evil. Referencing to "the drows of the underdark" (TSR) and the "Forgotten realms campain book" also the books of the spider queen saga (which tackes place the F.R.'s Underdark) some drows, and mainly from lower social classes, are praying Elistraee ( [//forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee]). Elistraee's followers also play a great role in the hystory of the underdark because of their resistance (Hystory of the F.R. - TSR) So you can meet some "good" drows in the underdark.

So alignement of drows (underdark and not banished in the cave or the surface or lower UD levels) should be NG, CG, CN, LE, NE, CE.

Also remember that after the netheril fall and the avatar saga, EO has decided that Faerûn plan had to be neutral : no too much evil nor good (if you're too busy trying to hunt your oposite you won't try to reach the power of a god, unless this oposite power forces you to like in netheril's fall). Underdark is some of the last places where plans limit are not "effective", so this "divine order" is not respected and there is many many many more evil than anywhere else. It intends that almost all drows are evil (see first book of drizzt saga). You can also see by reading drizzt history that the fear of the spider queen forces some of them to act like evil, but they dislike it (IE : drizzt's father) so drows are not naturaly evil.

If some GM could know that it would surely make the underdark campains a lot more fun (instead of pure evil and HL fights) :)

what do you think about that ?

--88.179.114.44 09:36, April 6, 2010 (UTC) NoSDuDe (nosdudefr@gmail.com)


 * The alignment bar depicts what the overwhelming majority has as an alignment. It's the same system used for followers of deities, members of organizations, citizens of cities/countries etc. There are of course good aligned drow, but aside from a few surface dwellings they are extremely rare. Drizzt is the exception, not the rule. Zeraktalk 15:55, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Bordered Pix
Does anyone else find the bordered pictures really distracting and out-of-place? Johnnyriot999 14:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Dead link: Wizards.com Year of the Drow
This URL is now being redirected to this location: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome

I've grabbed a working copy from the Internet Archive: Wayback Machine, but don't know how you normally format these sorts of things. Please can a regular user reformat the link using the local house-style. David Shepheard 22:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Check out Template:Cite web :) Zerak talk 22:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have done it. Fw190a8 18:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

4th Edition vs Other editions
If you can don't remove the older 3rd and second edition stuff and replace it with 4th edition stuff. Much better if you make the document more readable and put the edition detail in a seperate section. An example of this is War Wizard of Cormyr although even this needs some more work. Show (if you can) how the race has changed over the editions (in a section, maybe?) Hurtzbad 09:10, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Ilythiiri
Wouldn't it be better to make a page for Ilythiiri to make clear that there are two meanings of this name? Because there are the ancient Ilythiiri which weren't drow but the "old" dark elves and then later the word became a synonym for the drow. The problem is in the case of people like Ka'Narlist and Geirildin Sethomiir that they were dark elves living in the ancient realm Ilythiir. But both lived before the Descent and so they were no drow. Historicus 11:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, howevermuch authors have used the word as synonymous with drow since Evermeet was published, not all drow are of Ilythiiri descent. I think the whole Ilythiir / Miyeritar / Wendonai / Dark Disaster section is a horrible muddle, and will come back and shape it up when I have time. 74.83.14.59 18:18, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

Height
"They usually vary in height between 5'4" and 6', and weigh between 130 to 175 lbs on average."

This can't be correct, can it? Between 5'4" and 6' is essentially human height. Elves are smaller than humans, and Drow are smaller than most elves. I seem to remember in the War of the Spider Queen series when Ryld Argith is among a group of humans, he is described as being much shorter than any of them (and Ryld was tall for a Drow, and as a male smaller than female Drow). A six-foot Drow doesn't make sense.


 * Males are 4'4" +2d6 in. and females are 4'6" +2d6 in. So 4'6"-5'4" for males and 4'8"-5'6" for females. Page 21 Underdark. Zeraktalk 11:12, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Yet Drizzt Do'Urden is taller than Bruenor Battlehammer, and is nearly equal in height to Catti-brie, looking her and Artemis Entreri (a human of average stature who mimics Drizzt almost like a mirror) so average height would be closer to 4'8"-5'8" (With exceptions) for males and 5'-5'11"/6' for females. {[Source: The Legend Of Drizzt Collector's Edition: Book II}}

Elves
I am just curious on other editors and admins thoughts on whether or not drow are elves in 1e to 3e since an unknown user is systematically removing this category from each and every page. - Darkwynters (talk) 17:07, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Drow are an elven subrace in 3e, just like sun, moon, wood, and wild elves, as well as avariel and aquatic elves (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition p.13, Races of Faerûn p. 34). -- Coswig (talk) 20:13, July 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Drow have always been elves of some kind, I thought. And if it's changed with editions, then it doesn't matter: we're outside the timeline and so are categories. Once a drow, always a drow. — BadCatMan (talk) 09:21, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Slack Conversation
The following conversation was copied from our Slack channel:

Tsammarco [Today at 10:14] I'd like to point out that the version of Lolth's banishment in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes entirely invalidates the already established "War of the Seldarine" as described in books like Evermeet: Island of Elves. That's why I suggested that the various versions of the story should be treated like the various cosmology models in the Cosmology article (each considered as a theory). Oh, and greetings to all. (edited)

44 replies Saya222 [9 hours ago] Hello @Tsammarco,

first thank you for correcting my mistake.

About the different versions of the different myth, I'm of a diffrent opinion for the following reasons:

1. You pointed out Elaine Cunningham's "Evermeet: Island of the Elves" but that story's myth is designed to be taken as "historical fact" but just as a myth Elminster is telling. On this page (at the bottom) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1888&whichpage=43&SearchTerms=Tincheron the author is also saying that the lore in Evermeet is "more myth than history" (granted, she primarily talks about the Sundering)

2. "Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes" presents its story as historical fact. It basically starts with "these tales are true" regarding the origin story and then goes on what exactly is the origin story. So we have one version "War of the Seldarine" that is basically a myth elves tell among themselves and Mordenkainen's version that is presented as fact.

3. 5e's core setting is the FR-setting and "Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes" talks about Evermeet in Faerûn and has an NPC, Amlaruil musing about the ancient betrayal, making clear that the story is also known on Toril.

If you don't mind, I'd love to post this conversation to the Talk-page of "Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes" so that other people have the chance to join in. We can't be the only ones who thought about it.

Best Regards

Saya222 (edited)

slackbot Custom Response [9 hours ago] Well met!

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] I have the same opinion as @Saya222. Mordenkainen's account is impartial and as historically accurate as he could make it. Discrepancies do exist from one world to the other, and this is also dealt with in one of the framed comments. In p.51, Mordenkainen adds that the descent of the drow happened in different times in different worlds, and it hasn't even happened yet on Krynn. So it's to be expected that different tellings of the same story exist.

So my opinion would be that the _MTF_ account (being both impartial and explicitly mentioning the Realms) be treated as "what really happened", while other narratives be described as myths and legends. Which do hold their own share of truth, of course.

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] E: IoE isn't the only book that includes the War of the Seldarine. Demihuman Deities has the same exact tale, for example, and is written from an objective point of view. MToF, on the other hand, is written from the point of view of Mordenkainen, and doesn't present the content as objective. The whole premise of the book is that it's a collection of Mordenkainen's studies.

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] Same as Volo's Guide to Monsters, and other 5e books.

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] Let me rephrase my comment. Mordenkainen's tale, as you say, is generic, but it _is_ impartial. And it sure is objective. It's just not detailed down to the individual battles (or, more importantly, the elves' perception on what was happening).

So the War of the Seldarine could very well be what the elves in the Realms perceived as what was happening to their gods (the same way that they "perceived" Corellon as a male deity). That's what I mean by a "myths and legends" perspective. From the point of view of the Realms, the War of the Seldarine was "what really happened", but only to the elves that lived there.

Mordenkainen's account is generic enough that it rings true throughout the multiverse. Elves in each world perceived it slightly differently (or not at all). (edited)

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] So the historic account of the descent of the drow could be told as something like this:

• A section at the beginning of the History section recounting the events as they are presented in _MTF_, with a mention that different worlds in the multiverse may have different perceptions on the events and therefore discrepant accounts. • A continuation of the section detailing the same events, but from the points of view of the elves in the Realms, with possible mentions of the generic events of the preceding section. (edited)

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] In this case, it's a matter of core vs FR-specific. For example, Lolth being born from Corellon rather than being his former consort is entirely incompatible with the history of the elven gods in FR, and that's just one of contradictions. The implications would also force us to revise the entirety of the history of the FR drow. For example, we know that the FR drow didn't follow Lolth until she turned her attention towards that world (and even then, it would take her a few millennia to gain some prominence). If we go by the version in MToF all that doesn't make sense, given that *all* drow, including the gods of the Dark Seldarine, followed Lolth. Given that, and given that this is the tale of an in-universe character, I wouldn't label it as "what it really happened", but just as a different take on the history of the elven gods.

Saya222 [8 hours ago] Hello everyone,

I am for @Sir Whiteout's approach too, for Mordenkainen also points at the possibility of a "unique-to-every-world" origin for the drow with the comment on Krynn. (edited)

slackbot Custom Response [8 hours ago] Alae!

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] As long as it's not labeled as "what really happened", I'm fine with it too.

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] But the FR version of the War of the Seldarine is already included in the Dark Seldarine page, it would be a bit redundant to add it to the Drow page too.

Saya222 [8 hours ago] It won't, at least I wouldn't do such a thing, for barring the part of their origin, drow-history and the Dark Seldarine-history is closely connected but not the same.

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] In the Realms, the origin of the drow would happen only long after the War of the Seldarine (unlike what is told in the MToF)

Saya222 [8 hours ago] Well, it is implied that the Descents of every world happen on different times with the Krynn-comment.

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] Yeah, the timeframe is not really required to be consistent with Mordenkainen's account, by his own comments.

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] It's really as you said: the drow didn't all immediately and instantaneously follow Lolth when she turned away from Corellon. It would have happened at different times in different worlds, and the process would take a lot of time. So the FR account of the descent of the drow is totally consistent with the _MTF_ telling, mostly because it doesn't say how fast it happened. (edited)

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] I wouldn't say so, because before Lolth was banished (in MToF) when the drow already followed her, they still lived in Arvandor. They were exiled from Arvandor (and the other elves too) only after Corellon acted on the matter. In any case, as I said adding Mordenkainen's tale as another take on the history of the drow is fine to me.

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] (and by the point when Corellon acted, all drow followed Lolth, so it would follow that the Torilian drow would worship Lolth from the beginning). (edited)

Saya222 [8 hours ago] Well, there comes the point that the Descent happen on different world on different times. Toril's case was then just on -10.000DR. (edited)

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] I would argue that the elves already occupied the Material Plane and the Feywild even before Lolth's banishment (see the first paragraph of The Elven Diaspora section on p.36). The rift between Lolth and Corellon resulted in the elves losing the ability to return to Arvandor at will. That's their exile.

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] So it's not inconsistent to say that there were dark elves on Toril even before the War of the Seldarine happened.

Saya222 [8 hours ago] That's true, I overlooked it, thank you.

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] That's a good point, but other inconsistencies are still there. For example, FR drow started to follow Lolth only after she was banished and the War of the Seldarine had already concluded. But then, as already mentioned, this can be solved by presenting both the traditional and Modenkainen's version of the tale.

Saya222 [8 hours ago] And again, there is this Krynn-comment that implies that the Descent, including the knowledge about Corellon and Lolth can happen at different times.

Also @Sir Whiteout's comment is not without its merits for "elves get their static forms" => "over time forget about the gods" => "go to other worlds" => "re-learn of the gods" => "Descent happens" is not outside of its logic.

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] Again, there doesn't seem to be an inconsistency with the FR dark elves not following Lolth initially. Again, at the top of the second column of p.36, it says "the elves who revered Lolth became drow".

No mention of how they looked like before, nor of exactly how long after the fight it happened, or even if those elves sided with Lolth during the fight or were even aware of it. Only that they became drow as a result of following Lolth at some point after the war.

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] The same is said in the Drow section on p.50: "The schism led to a conflict that ended with Lolth retreating to the Abyss and her adherents exiled to the Underdark." No mention of a timeline or even if it was required that those elves sided with anyone during the conflict.

Tsammarco [8 hours ago] The contradictions are already there before (Demihuman Deities paints a very different origin for the elven gods, the battle of the War of the Seldarine goes very differently--in MToF there's no battle at all, only Corellon lashing against Lolth, and then Lolth sneaking up to try to kill him, etc...). In any case "Lolth retreating to the Abyss and her adherents exiled to the Underdark" makes it sound like they happened at the same time, rather than 20k years from each other. Yes, there's a comment about how the descent happened at different times in different worlds, but all of this is the reason why Mordenkainen's story is not "the truth", but just another story.

Sir Whiteout [8 hours ago] I don't think that it makes it sound like it happened at the same time. I think the _MTF_ account is purposefully vague so that the story remains consistent with how it is told in different worlds. The fact that it leaves a lot up to interpretation is intentional.

It also doesn't explicitly say that there were no battles. On the contrary, the narrative of Corellon's followers trying to help "blunt" Lolth's blow does have the ring of an epic divine battle involving vast armies of followers.

Sir Whiteout [7 hours ago] Again, it's up for interpretation.

Tsammarco [7 hours ago] Well, in that part, it says that Corellon merely "railed against" Lolth, which doesn't include physical violence, that the elves calmed him down, and Lolth used the opportunity to attack. It's entirely different from the FR story.

Saya222 [7 hours ago] Is it really? The basic story is "Lolth tried to kill Corellon with the support of other gods who later formed the Dark Seldarine". No physical violence from Corellon to Lolth.

Saya222 [7 hours ago] Only Lolth tries to hurt Corellon in physical ways.

Tsammarco [7 hours ago] The painted scenario is completely different, that can't be denied. As I said, this doesn't even include a battle, just some kind of huge meeting. In the original tale, Lolth doesn't even try to hurt Corellon personally, she uses Eilistraee's arrow to do so. Anyway, I went ahead and added both tales: one according to the drow and elves of Toril, one according to Mordenkainen.

Saya222 [7 hours ago] According to Elaine Cunningham, the story should be taken more as myth than history. Further more, the exact banishment of Lolth and co. also happens in a giant meeting in the myth-version, that one is a trial, though.

Saya222 [7 hours ago] My apologies, but I have to shut down, tomorrow is a bit early for me.

Good bye everyone

slackbot Custom Response [7 hours ago] Run free!

Sir Whiteout [7 hours ago] This is a very interesting discussion. We can continue it later.

Tsammarco [7 hours ago] Goodbye, Saya

Tsammarco [7 hours ago] On the matter, though, while Elaine describes it as myth in a Candlekeep post, there are many other sources that talk of it as fact (Demihuman Deities is one). However, I wrote it as the PoV of the elves and drow of Toril, while the MToF tale is Mordenkainen's records.

Sir Whiteout [7 hours ago] From the point of view of the elves, it may well be considered fact to them. Mordenkainen's records are, in a way, agnostic to their perceptions.

Tsammarco [6 hours ago] I meant that I introduced the traditional version with "according to the elves and drow of Toril..." and the MToF version with "the wizard Mordenkainen recorded a different version of this story:..."

Sir Whiteout [5 hours ago] I disagree with some bits of that paragraph. _MTF_ does not say that the elves who sided with Lolth in that particular moment were the ones that became drow. It says that the ones who _most revered Lolth_ became drow.

It also doesn't say that Lolth tried to murder Corellon while he was thinking about that particular argument, but when he became distracted and lost in thought. That could mean anything. He could have stopped to gaze at a butterfly, for all we know.

It also doesn't say that some elves remained loyal to the Spider Queen. It only says that the ones who agreed with Lolth did nothing to stop her attempt at Corellon. (edited)

Sir Whiteout [5 hours ago] That's what I mean by the absence of obvious contradictions. Those points where you mention that contradictions exist are only so if the reader fills in the blanks. The text is intentionally vague exactly to avoid those. (edited)
 * I didn't write the part of this article about the MToF version of the Descent, but in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgP6JnWh4Ig Crawford pretty much confirms that the phrase meant that those who sided with Lolth at that time became drow. Arguably, you could say that the book leaves things vague, but it states that when the primal elves were cast down, they immediately took their material forms (it doesn't explicitly say immediately, but it's obvious, since it says that the elves retained the form that they had adopted in defiance of Corellon's will, and that therefore were wearing at the moment of betrayal), and those who revered her (which obviously didn't stop her) became drow. Even for the other statements (such as Lolth became a demon lord and the drow went to the Underdark), the immediate interpretation is that the two things happened at the same time. Tsammarco (talk) 02:51, October 1, 2018 (UTC)


 * Hello Tsammarco,


 * I watched the video. It basically says in 3:56-4:20 that the story in MToF is canon by saying that Drizzt has some memories in his blood that he descended Corellon. Furthermore, 7:02-7:31 makes a comment about the dark elves of Krynn who look different than drow. 8:40-8:58 says that entire thing that not on every world Lolth's and Corellon's names are not known. The book refers to Krynn as a world where the Descent has not yet happened, the dark elves there look different, and Lolth and Corellon aren't known.


 * Frankly, the video basically told us to ditch whatever we knew before. My suggestion therefore would be to do it in a similar way I did. Starting with a "Myth"-section explaining only that the dark elves' fate was given into Lolth's hands and then a "Historical fact"-section that explains the descendant from Corellon story. I took the liberty to write in that way to showcase how it would look like.


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222 (talk) 16:59, October 1, 2018 (UTC)

I don't agree with the FR canon being called myth, and Mordenkainen's version "historical fact", because it is not (from the book: "this book contains the musings of the renowned wizard Mordenkainen from the world of Greyhawk. In his travels to other worlds and other planes of existence, he has made many friends, and has risked his life an equal number of times, to amass the knowledge contained herein"), whereas the FR version is presented from an objective point of view in Demihuman Deities, for example.

I linked the video to show the incompatibility between the FR lore and Mordenkainen's lore. This wiki has already dealt with a similar case: the various cosmology models, and all 3 models are presented as alternative versions. The same should be done here, unless we wanted to retcon the official loreTsammarco (talk) 17:10, October 1, 2018 (UTC)


 * I want to note that a video about a sourcebook is a secondary source, not a primary source. If the video tells us "to ditch whatever we knew before," that frankly doesn't matter. It can inform our understanding, but it does not override what the book actually says. As far as the books themselves, I have not had the time to read them all carefully, but I am not convinced that they are as contradictory as a first read might imply.


 * In any case, I am opposed to an outright retcon; I agree with Tsammarco as far as his desire to present all material found in sources, old or new, especially since the previous histories were such well-established lore already. We should never delete content from articles if it has a valid FR source.


 * On the other hand, I hesitate to call anything on this wiki "historical fact". All lore is simply lore, not fact, the way I see it. A DM can do what she or he wants with any of it, and there are always going to be inconsistencies. Even in the real world, historians cannot prove the facts of events, because all events are recounted from different points of view by unreliable narrators with inherent and unconscious biases. Why should a fantasy world be any different?


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:20, October 1, 2018 (UTC)


 * I presented both versions as possible alternatives, without naming either as indisputable truth: one supported by the elves and drow of Toril, and one the result of the studies of Mordenkainen (because that's what the book itself says). That's the same thing that has been done for the cosmologies, I believe.--Tsammarco (talk) 19:02, October 1, 2018 (UTC)

Twitter citations
Regarding Saya's question about twitter citations, Ed Greenwood currently primarily answers to questions via Twitter. His Twitter account has mostly replaced Candlekeep in that regard. Since it's lore from Ed, it's canon until contradicted by WotC sources. However, if a wiki admin clarifies that those refs are not acceptable, I can remove it.--Tsammarco (talk) 19:21, October 9, 2018 (UTC)