User talk:Gem Hound

Welcome!
Well met, Gem Hound, and welcome to the Forgotten Realms Wiki! Thank you for your edit to the Tellectus page. We hope you like the place and decide to stay and explore the Forgotten Realms with us.

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Again, welcome! Happy scribing!

— Hashimashadoo (talk) 21:04, November 14, 2015 (UTC)

Welcome and advice
Hi Gem Hound.

Welcome to the wiki and thanks for your contributions. I hope you decide to stick around. Please have a look at the above welcome notice for some general tips and polices to see how we do things.

For some advice, please get to know the Preview button. Don't make a change, then publish to see what happened, then make another change, and repeat, on and on. That just fills up the edit histories and activity pages with dozens of minor changes, and makes it very hard for us to see what you did and fix it up. Instead, use Preview to see what the result is without publishing, so you can easily undo it and go back or make a new change, then save the final result. Another technique is to write your article in a separate program like Word before copying the final product to the wiki.

Please also make sure you use the correct references on an article. I spent some time looking through Dragon #255 for mongrelman, when it was actually #242.

We all make mistakes in this, especially starting out, and that's fine. Just slow down, take your time. I recommend making one article at a time, then waiting to give the rest of us a chance to look it over, make revisions, and offer advice like this, then use what you learn for the next article.

Anyway, once again, welcome aboard! — BadCatMan (talk) 03:51, November 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * Please also remember to use the Information template when uploading images. The Upload Photo page should tell you everything you need to do. You should also add categories, from Category:Images and so on. — BadCatMan (talk) 04:03, November 18, 2015 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for cleaning up my mess. I'm currently working on upgrading the Aldani page and would really like for you to add in your input. I have doubled the references and am slowly adding to it, I've so far added stats, tried to condense the references a little by book instead of page(since there are about 8 book references - still have pages listed), I've also added history I found on the wiki on the timeline that pertained to them. I've decided to combine crabmen and lobster men on the same page there since both are Yurians. Any help would be thoroughly appreciated!

Note: I'm still not done with the mongrelmen either. — Gem Hound(talk)


 * (I like to keep conversations together, so I moved your response back to your page.)
 * Thank you, I started the aldani page a few years ago, though just to rehabilitate a copied article. I had no idea what they were. It's nice to see it grow like this.
 * On references, just add as many as you know of. It gives a reader multiple choices of book to look up, as they probably won't have all of them. Make sure that all statements have a reference, and that all references that apply are applied.
 * Combining two/three different-named creatures like that requires some explanation: it may just be that different designers independently thought of crab-people, but they might be very different in concept. The 3e yurians and 2e crabmen share the same lore, so must be the same creature with a new name. I'm not certain about the aldani/lobster-men, as the lore is rather different, but it doesn't actually contradict, so I would accept it. Consider adding a note of explanation in the appendix of the article. — BadCatMan (talk) 06:48, November 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * I have linked them together since Forgotten Realms campaign books call lobster men Yurians, while the crabmen in Second Edition look identical and share the same lore with Yurians in Third Edition. Lobstermen do not exist in any D&D edition, while crabmen do. Crabmen are barely referenced in the realms(only one reference), while Lobster men/Aldani are heavily referenced as presiding in the Jungles of Chult.
 * Yes, and I am adding every reference I can find, especially ones that were not there such as the Monstrous Compendium and Dragon Magazine. The authour, namely you, did have one reference that I found was just about two or three sentences about them in the Serpent Kingdoms book.
 * I am doing what I can to flesh out Tellectus first, and for me that also means fleshing out its occupants at the same time(so that means all the links in Tellectus and their sub links are being worked on by me unless they are already finished like illithid or svirfneblin). I'm eventually getting more organized with my contributions though and I FOUND THE PREVIEW BUTTON!. It seems that you didn't have to change much yet with the Yurians as of yet, but I still have much to add to their page. Once I'm satisfied with how these pages have turned out, I'll move on to the Tlincallis of Oaxaptupa.Gem Hound (talk) 22:57, November 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * We know yurians and crab-men and we know aldani are lobster-men. However, we can't say for sure that yurians/crab-men are aldani/lobster-men. After all, crabs and lobsters are different animals, so these creatures could well be different too.


 * Please note this: use past tense. Always write from the perspective that things happened in the past. It makes adding later lore and changes to the lore easier in the future.


 * Also, try not to extrapolate, guess, or make-up information. Focus only on what is known from the sources. For example, at mozgriken, I had to remove quite a bit. First, halfing ceremorphosis was not mentioned (you never know, a half-illithid halfling might be a thing somewhere). Second, it's not yet known if mozgriken are in Oryndoll; those in Tellectus were most likely made in Tellectus. Third, I don't know what you meant by mozgriken being left to their own devices, as Dragon #255 said nothing of the kind.


 * Word of advice: focus on one project and one article at a time. It'll save you missing lore and help you write a better, more focused article. As you're new here, I'm checking and fact-checking everything you do, and jumping between mozgriken, mongrelman, and yurian is confusing the hell out of me and my books. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:07, November 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * We also know that lobster men and aldani are yurians, due to The Jungles of Chult calling them yurians. I've also been trying my best to write in past tense, I'm most used to writing in current tense.
 * A ceremorph is another name for a half-illithid. The reason is is that half-illithid go through ceremorphosis to be created, and ceremorphs are also created in the same way. It is an interchangable word for the same thing. A ceremorph is a half-illithid. The only exception is in humans, where full illithid get formed with illithid larva implantation, aka ceremorphosis. Illithid cannot and would not reproduce with other species, just force to recreate themselves out of other species. Its a big thing about them.
 * You are right about that other point though concerning the mozgriken and how the illithid treat them, I probably would have removed it myself today. You are also right that the part about Oryndoll was an assumption due to the fact that Oryndoll built the colony.Edit: Ahh I see what you mean now. I meant svirneblin, not halflings(halflings have at least 2 subraces last I looked - not gnomes which are what svirfneblin are).Gem Hound (talk) 16:04, November 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * I found a quote to support my statement concerning half-illithid and ceremorphs in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark! It is on page 22, halfway through the first paragraph, I'm adding it now. Edit: I've stopped what I'm doing currently and am updating all the pages this source deals with right now. Nearly all of them are connected to the realms now due to this source. Edit2: I'm sticking to one lorebook for now, to make things easier for you, I will only deviate to other ones, where creatures as such are included. I have also found references placing all the ceremorphs, and will focus on them using Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The references are all generally the same pages with a few exemptions as for neothelids, which tie directly into the Legend of Drizzt, as the colony Drizzt was kept in for a decade that was destroyed by zincarla, is haunted by one.
 * Gem Hound (talk) 03:15, November 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, The Jungles of Chult doesn't mention anything about yurians. You're just supposing that lobstermen and crabmen are the same. Without evidence to link them, I'm growing more inclined to split the article in two.
 * Past tense: thank you.
 * I get what a ceremorph is, and I saw the name in the Dragon magazine article for mozgriken. The problem was that the ceremorphosis previously only cited Fiend Folio 3rd edition, which only called them "half-illithids", not "ceremorphs". The point is, if you add information to a page, make sure that it is properly referenced on that page.
 * As I said, focus on only one article and one source at a time to help you avoid making these mistakes. And remember to use the Preview button or prepare your article offline to help you catch them before they're published. — BadCatMan (talk) 08:10, November 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * And when you upload a new image, please please please use the Information template supplied to add the full details of the source of the image, the artist or mapmaker, a description, license, and categories. Have a look at other images, particularly the Featured Images on the front page, to see how this should look. — BadCatMan (talk) 08:40, November 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * That has me really confused then as Yurians were already on the page before I started. I found it. It was in Serpent Kingdoms it seems, where they used aldani, lobster men and yurians interchangeable. I have access to the Serpent Kingdoms book via pdf form, so here is a screenshot:
 * https://gyazo.com/e9cfb980845f4876820bd2487009ffd3
 * Gem Hound (talk) 10:15, November 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * At last, thank you! You were really confusing me my saying The Jungles of Chult when you meant Serpent Kingdoms. The reference to page 117 of Serpent Kingdoms was lost in all your editing. — BadCatMan (talk) 10:56, November 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I want your input for Illithid Creeds in Oryndoll. When I start to make them, should I make separate pages for the creeds, and add a category for them called Illithid Creed? The other option is to make one complete page for all of them. Another question is for places in Oryndoll, should I add separate pages for all of them, or should I make a page with the map somehow, that has all of the places in Oryndoll labelled as a key on the map? the other option may even be a better idea, which is to make a key for the map on the map's page itself, and link it to separate pages for locations in the city.(that is what the [12] was on The Flowstone Tapestry the other day)Gem Hound (talk) 19:17, November 21, 2015 (UTC)


 * The illithid creeds are all distinct organizations, with different members, aims, and activities, so they should be separate articles. You could also make an umbrella page to explain what an illithid creed is in general, with links to the different creeds.
 * When it comes to locations, there are several ways of handling them. If it's a distinct location with a good amount of lore, you can make a full article out of it. If there's very little lore, we have Three-Sentence Rule: if the article would be less than three sentences, then don't bother with making a new article, but instead just leave the lore on a page covering it and make a redirect for it. (This doesn't apply to people, items, creatures, plants, and other things that can be found separately, mostly only things that are integral to a larger topic, and is often a matter of judgement. Does this need an article or not?) Locations that don't meet the 3-sentence rule, that are too general, or too integral to a location can be discussed on that locations page.
 * For example, for Calaunt, I made a number of locations at Category:Locations in Calaunt. Dracolisk's Head merited a separate article, but I had nothing to say about Halbar's Bookshop itself, so it is a redirect to its owner. Meanwhile, the city's walls, docks, and tanneries are unnamed and so discussed on the Calaunt page itself.
 * For simplicity, just leave a picture of the map on the Oryndoll page and discuss the locations individually. You can display the map on the individual pages if it shows where the location lies. You can also put a key on the image page, as I did at File:FRA Calaunt.jpg. — BadCatMan (talk) 01:43, November 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * So, is this okay for the map key? File:Oryndoll.png - Currently they will link to Creed pages.
 * Would it be fine to put the locations for the illithid Creeds in Oryndoll as subarticles in with the Creed pages themselves, and add them to both organization and locations? As for the Creed locations detailed in the city, I can maybe build one sentence each for the locations themselves(most of the information is about the Creeds themselves).
 * Also, before you change anything, DDGttU counts Creed as a pronoun, and capitalizes it everywhere. There are also Creeds that do not have headquarters in the city, but still exist((do not yet fit the three sentence rule, but will fit it eventually)), so I'll make pages for them too, even though currently they will be stub articles.
 * With generic names, I left them on the main page so it would not be possible to accidentally cross over other articles. All the places listed for Oryndoll are named though.
 * So for the Oryndoll image at the top, should I put the image of the Elder Conclave meeting with the Elder Brain as the main picture, and pull the map down the page?
 * Gem Hound (talk) 02:24, November 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Those locations don't have to link to creed articles. That is, there is enough to discuss the Hall of Melding on an article separate from the Gatherer Creed. Also, I wouldn't recommend merging a location and organization on a single page, as it could get very confusing for the reader. We can't have two infoboxes (one for location, one for organization) on a page.
 * Just first consider everything as a separate article: all the Creeds as separate articles, all the locations as separate articles, and so on. Then consider which should not be separate articles, and should be merged or redirected or discussed on the primary page. Locations of this kind should generally point to the city page, while minor shops and such would point to an owner. For generic places, you are right, they can be left on the primary page.
 * BTW, a city project is enormously complicated and requires a lot of forethought and planning (I've done a few), and it will produce a large number of sub-articles. I don't recommend it for the beginner. And slow down! There's no rush, no one to race but yourself. Taking the time and care to get the arrangement right.
 * As for the image, you can put what you like. A piece of art is usually more eyecatching and illustrative than a map. — BadCatMan (talk) 05:55, November 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for the advice. I'll get everything done properly. Also, I've double checked the image and there are ten more ulitharid in it then there should be, so it is probably not of the Elder Conclave but it is still a picture of ulitharid surrounding an elder brain, with it being sandwiched into the same article.
 * Gem Hound (talk) 06:26, November 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * I have now finished building the pages for the illithid Creeds in Oryndoll, and added another picture to the main Oryndoll page. You should stop seeing spam from me for a while. ;)
 * Gem Hound (talk) 09:29, November 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Maybe some ulitharid are visiting? :) Art usually doesn't correspond exactly to text, so eh.
 * Okay, cool. I'll check the new pages over the next couple of days. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:22, November 22, 2015 (UTC)

Crabs
I noticed one of your to do pieces revolved around the Crabmen. The problem is that the Crabmen aren't one whole race. It's like goblins and hobgoblins etc. They appear to be split between three types.

1. Crabmen Humanoids with crab claws with a strong desire for silver.

2. Yurians Weird crustacean hunter gatherers with regeneration powers and who craft things out of oceanic objects

3. Lobsterfolk Former members of a tribe who hunted lobsters to exitniction and so were cursed to be lobsters themselves.

These seem to be 3 distinct races with the only connection being a crustacean theme. I advise splitting these into 3 seperate (albeit short) articles.

 User:Gem Hound
 * I would agree. However, Yurians and Lobstermen/Aldani are linked in Serpent Kingdoms. Below is a screenshot from the book on page 117:
 * This seems like more than a typo. Regardless, I am searching for where the connection between Crab Men and Yurians/Aldani came from.

Just pointing out something you may have missed from Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark

Founded by a small colony of illithids from Oryndoll in the upper Underdark near Beregost, the city of Tellectus was abandoned and fell into ruin after a devastating raid by a company of adventurers. Although the illithids departed Tellectus long ago, a handful of their mozgriken servitors remain, abandoned by their creators and unwelcome among their svirfnebiin ancestors. The deep gnome ceremorphs seem to have developed some means of reproduction, for their numbers grow slowly. Mozgriken culture evinces elements of their svirfneblin and illithid ancestry. A growing mongrelman community serves them as thralls.

Vegepygmy (talk) 03:35, June 20, 2019 (UTC)

Looks like I removed an extra sentence. The one I was speaking about was the one that said that both the larva and the svirfneblin die during ceremorphosis. I instead edited that sentence to be accurate as many die, not all of them.

Gem Hound (talk) 03:42, June 20, 2019 (UTC)

The missing sentence is put back into place, but with hopefully the proper tense. Keep on going. With you finishing off some of my to do list that I never got around to... Anyway, I'm going to build the Nyraala golem page next, and connect it to the main illithid page. Gem Hound (talk) 03:49, June 20, 2019 (UTC)

Just to be sure, do you wanna do the pages? Vegepygmy (talk) 05:52, June 20, 2019 (UTC)
 * No. I've had years to do what you are doing right now. I'll just focus on the page(s) on the top of my list for the time being. I need to split Oryndoll's references, which I should have done right from the start. After that I'll be building the location pages and organization pages that are yet missing for the city.
 * Gem Hound (talk) 16:23, June 20, 2019 (UTC)

Or you know, User:Sirwhiteout can come in and finish that page while I was sleeping. :D Gem Hound (talk) 15:20, June 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I missed this discussion when I was editing the page. Feel free to add anything I might have missed! ― Sirwhiteout (talk) 15:38, June 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * Don't worry. I'll just move on to fixing my references mess on the Oryndoll page.

Gem Hound (talk) 15:42, June 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * You can put a Working notice at the top of a page you're working on, to ensure that other editors don't change it while you're working on it. ― Sirwhiteout (talk) 17:31, June 20, 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, will do so in the future. Anyway, I don't seem to be able to add this category as a category to a page:
 * [//forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Locations_in_Oryndoll https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Locations_in_Oryndoll]
 * Gem Hound (talk) 19:26, June 20, 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, I figured it out. I can't add it as a category to a page via the tooltip at the bottom, I have to add it while editing.
 * Gem Hound (talk) 22:18, June 20, 2019 (UTC)

General question about Beholders.

'I Tyrant' is this comprehensive Beholder guide. I was wondering if it was canon hear since the Beholder sections are somewhat bare bonesy.

Vegepygmy (talk) 20:24, June 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * I would assume it is, since it is official material. No one has really worked in detail on the beholders I would assume. Before I got to the monsters of the illithid and some of the illithid cities, the wiki was also bare bones for them. An example of this from the top of my head is that gauth are not recorded as existing in the Gauth Grottoes in the nomadic Darkweave Hive under the Elder orb gauth Xamag the Glaumorvore.
 * Edit: You can find that information in Drizzt's guide if I'm not mistaken.
 * Gem Hound (talk) 20:44, June 20, 2019 (UTC)
 * I looked, and I, Tyrant is listed under sourcebooks on the wiki as well as being stated as part of the core setting. Regardless, the article on that sourcebook is ALSO bare bones. So just going off of that, I can comfortably tell you that it is just likely that no one has gotten around to it yet.
 * Gem Hound (talk) 21:11, June 20, 2019 (UTC)
 * Hey again. So another Beholder related question. Previous editions have them reproducing by giving birth (being hermaphrodites) who give birth live. On the other hand, as you probably know, Volo ones create new ones via their dreams. Should I include both methods? I'm choosing to ignore Ebberon where they were created as their own race.
 * That one would be best to either ask User:BadCatMan or User:Sirwhiteout I think. They are far more experienced when it comes to wiki policy concerning blatantly lore contradictions like that. Volo would probably win out though unless the other is from specifically a forgotten realms source as well.
 * Gem Hound (talk) 04:12, June 21, 2019 (UTC)
 * Gem Hound (talk) 04:12, June 21, 2019 (UTC)

Page Titles
So you know, the only time that you should ever use parentheses in a wiki article title is if the page would otherwise be ambiguous. If there is a spell called "Thunderbolt" and an inn called "Thunderbolt", only then would you need to title the latter "Thunderbolt (inn)". ~ Lhynard (talk) 07:38, June 23, 2019 (UTC)


 * Alot of these places are ambiguous and could exist in other places in the realms. Examples of this are the thrall caverns, ring caverns, amphitheater, etc. Gem Hound (talk) 15:00, June 23, 2019 (UTC)
 * Double checked the sources, The Ring caverns are 100% ambigous. Ring Caverns are present in most mind flayer communities, though they are slightly different in each community. It is confirmed that a district of Ch'Chitl is also called "Ring Caverns". "Thrall Caverns" is also ambiguous for that token because most illithid hives call it "Thrall Caverns". Ch'Chitl however is different in this regard and calls it the Quaggoth warrens. Gem Hound (talk) 15:20, June 23, 2019 (UTC)
 * One last edit - I am going to be building Ch'Chitl up as well as a few pages for generic colonies in the realms. However, also on my list are Gohlbrorn and Category:Illithid items that are at least, connected to the realms. I will be reverting the page moves and the link simplifications for the definitely ambiguous areas, while trying to maintain your other edits. Gem Hound (talk) 15:31, June 23, 2019 (UTC)
 * Seems like I don't know how to do that. Can you please revert your edits? Gem Hound (talk) 15:44, June 23, 2019 (UTC)
 * Not all of the edits mind you, as some are not generic like the undervaults which is a unique district to Oryndoll. The only two pages that need reverting, and summarily most of their links are Thrall Caverns and Ring Caverns.


 * If this is the case, then you should probably make a make ring cavern and thrall cavern and give the general descriptions of each one.


 * Also, please note that there is a significant difference between the statement that "There are many examples of ring caverns," and that "There are many examples of Ring Caverns." The sourcebook seems to consistently use "Ring Caverns" for Oryndoll. It sounds like Ch'Chitl does the same, in which case, you are correct that we should restore your original title. For the case of the Thrall Caverns, however, this does not seem to be the case.


 * I just wanted to slow you down to make sure that you considered these things.


 * Also, great work, by the way. You are taking on a large project. Please don't see my edits as any sort of indication of poor work on your part; you are doing great. There are a lot of policies and practices to keep track of.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:18, June 23, 2019 (UTC)