Talk:Dark Seldarine

Depictions
Dear Tsammarco,

thank you for looking up my edits. I think we should discuss once about Ilythiir's depictions. Otherwise I fear, we'll be deleting each other's edits with no end.

My point is the following, LEoF mentions that Ilythiiri experimented with the iconography and got it wrong. The "offended gods" killed their followers. The mentioned examples are "masked spiders" (Masked Lord-Vhaeraun), "ooze monsters" (Ooze god-Ghaunadaur) and "eightlimbed undead elves wielding swords" (Eilistraee/Kiaransalee-goddessses of undeath and swordwork respectively) in LEoF. Ascendancy of the Last gives us more examples. Again "masked spider" (Vhaeraun), "spider with melted wax-like face" (Ghaunadaur), "spider with skeletal features" (Kiaransalee) and "spider singing praises to Lolth" (Eilistraee)

To summarize, "offended gods killed their followers for depictions" and we have depictions of all four gods including Eilistraee. So I'd say we just include Eilistraee.

Again thank you

Saya222 Saya222 (talk) 21:09, March 16, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd say that we actually have no source that includes Eilistraee among the gods that killed their followers. The book specifically talks about unholy gods, about high priests dying *horrible* deaths, the book doesn't even mention Eilistraee anywhere in regard to Ilythiir. Associating a clearly evil act with a good goddess also usually requires an explicit statement. It's pretty clear that the author didn't mean to associate her with this kind of acts.


 * Even the undead spider with swords--the only example in LEoF that one *might* argue to be somewhat associated to Eilistraee--can't be associated to her with certainty (the reason why I had previously changed the phrase in the article, is that the italian translation--the version which i have access to--doesn't even mention swords, but just weapons). Swords aren't enough to draw the comparison, as they (and their variations) are very generic weapons, and the most common melee weapons used by drow and elves (axes, maces, etc... aren't seen very often). For example, even Vhaeraun wields swords. "Undead elven spider" sounds much more like a mash up between Lolth and Kiaransalee, tbh, as their iconic symbols are both there, whereas swords dedicated to Eilistraee are 1)specifically bastard straight swords 2)always depicted against a full moon, or surrounded by strands of hair (and when wielded, the wielder is nearly always female with long silver hair). Also, Eilistraee's most iconic portfolio is that of dance rather than swordwork, and she doesn't dual wield, nor her priestesses are known to use weapons in both hands (which the elven spider does).


 * The fact that the section of the book talks about stuff found in an Ilythiiri temple to Lolth also probably means that the examples are mash-ups of various deities with Lolth, rather than among other deities of the pantheon). To be honest, even a spider singing praises to Lolth could be interpreted in a variety of ways by a drow who happened to look at it. Singing someone's praises is an idiom that simply means praising someone with enthusiasm, and has nothing to do with actually singing. I don't recall the scene, does AotL specifically mention that the spider singing praises refers to Eilistraee and involves an actual song? Because otherwise even that part is open to interpretation.--EDIT: nvm, in that scene Lolth was basically depicted as holding spiders representing each deity under her control, as a puppeteer.


 * --Tsammarco (talk) 23:31, March 16, 2017 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for moving these around. I'll answer to these per seciton.


 * The book talks about "worship the Dark Seldarine" and refers to them as "unholy pantheon", which the Dark Seldarine is, a single gem in a mud pool doesn't change the mud pool into something else. Furthermore, the book doesn't refer to anyone but Lolth and Eilistraee is added in AotL. Regarding the part "associating evil acts with good gods", the entire Ilythiir-section stresses out how evil Ilythiir was to the point that you really ask yourself what it is they wanted. Mashing Eilistraee up with Lolth (AotL) is the same as using her as a justification for senseless cruelty and Eilistraee is violent in the face of violence, even more so if committing it can stop evil at committing violence. So actually, I don't really see a contradiction.


 * About the elves' usage of swords, come to think of it, their racial proficiencies, often include swords, my personal image of elves is them, especially drow, not allowing it to come to melee, using very tricky weapon like whips or depending on whom to fight, clubs and the likes because especially wild and wood habe problems with metal. In short, you have a point. About the depiction with sword problem itself. Eilistraee's favored weapon is a bastard sword, but using edged weapons in general is her part, and we're talking about violent Ilythiir. As a trivia, she also wields two bastard swords, at least in DD. For some reason, the "Faiths and Pantheons" opted to severely drop her effectiveness by letting her wield only one sword while at the same time turning Str into her dump stat. Her later depictions in LP-series fortunately allow her her two floating swords back. Furthermore, "not getting the depictions right" is the entire point of the section.


 * Again thank you for looking up and for the swift answer


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222
 * Saya222 (talk) 18:04, March 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * Eilistraee accepts violence as self-defense and defense of others, essentially. No violence has been committed agains anyone here, it's just self-expression (or, at worst, ignorance and/or diffamation). Also, think that--again--offing her own followers is oceans away from how Eilistraee acts (for the reasons that I've already explained in our previous conversations).


 * When I said that LEoF doesn't even mention Eilistraee in regard to Ilythiir, I meant that it doesn't mention her anywhere in the Crown Wars section. Even when it talks about the DS (the part about the corruption of Ilythiir), it specifically says "Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, Lolth, and Ghaundaur" (probably because Eilistraee's influence was small). The other symbols used in LEoF are very clear and unmistakeable, whereas swords really aren't enough for Eilistraee (a dancing spider, for example, would have been)--especially when the iconography for that particular depiction was pretty clearly aimed to represent Lolth+Kiaransalee (and the Dark Maiden doesn't dual wield, her two dancing swords act on their own, while she wields her own singing sword. Besides, generally, wielding 2 swords does nothing to increas your effectiveness, and LEoF came in 3e anyway). Priestesses of Eilistraee tend to prefer edged weapons in general, but the goddess' iconic sword--the one that is used in all of her symbols--is indeed the bastard sword, usually against a full moon, or with strands of silver hair. You would think that if the author wanted to include Eilistraee among the list of the deities who offed their followers (so, something that is rather confusing on its own) he would have made it clear that the weapons were bastard swords. As I said, it's pretty clear that the author of LEoF referred to the DS minus Eilistraee and, obviously, Selvetarm.


 * The fact that Ilythiir was evil has little to do with the fact that associating a cruel and evil act with a good goddess would be accompanied by a pretty explicit statement and explanation to the reader in order to make things clear, not in-world--Tsammarco (talk) 18:26, March 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * Convinced and agreed; my apologies for the hassle. By the way, I reread DD but it simply says Eilistraee wields two swords under the avatar-section both identical with dancing and singing sword.


 * The thing with lacking effectiveness refers just to crunch. A bastard sword in two hands is just a bad great sword. In one hand, it's a better longsword for which you've burned an entire feat. Of course, wielding it for a time in two hands and switching to one hand when the need arises to have a hand free is an option but for this the longsword for it doesn't eat a feat. Furthermore, when you read stats of gods, it's simply clear that when they enter a fight, the question is about how many critical hits they can make and there, having two weapons and with it 5-7 chances is simply better. That was the background of lacking effectiveness.


 * Best Regards
 * Saya222
 * Saya222 (talk)

Newer edits
Hello Saya222.

I noticed your new edits, and while they are surely well researched, it's excessive. This article is about the Dark Seldarine themselves, and has the purpose to offer a general overview of the pantheon. The history of the drow themselves doesn't really fit here, nor do the smaller details of what each deities and each of their faiths did. For example, we don't need to explain all the Crown Wars every time they come up, those details are better left to their respective pages (it's the whole point of the links).--Tsammarco (talk) 18:46, February 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for taking care. I'll answer to your edit, please be aware, it'll be rather long.


 * This page is about the Dark Seldarine. This pantheon differs from all others. It's easy to incorporate this one in any campaign and session because it didn't seemingly grow from between random tree branches but has an actual history how it came to be. This is the reason why the sections grew long.


 * I'm aware that it is long but I had to keep in mind to keep it to the development of the whole pantheon. For example, while "How did Lolth, who is so unattractive manage to come out on top?" is a question left for the Lolth-page. "How did all others react?" is one belonging to the Dark Seldarine-page. You wrote about the Crown Wars. The details of the information "Sethomiir called Wendonai to counter Aryvandaar" belongs into the Lolth-page but putting this into conjunction with "The evil members of the Dark Seldarine-to-be gave power too but couldn't outrun her head start." belongs here. An information like Ghaunadaur's dark-elf-moon elf-foreign faiths persecution for example doesn't belong here. Also why was the section that described where the drow deities stood in 1372 DR deleted? That one described "What did Lolth do with her position of supremacy?" and how did the others react/carve out their niches? Which really should be mentioned here in the general Dark Seldarine page and not as part of the individual god pages.


 * The background for my edits is, that the first thing everyone knows when reading anywhere about the Dark Seldarine is "Lolth is the boss, the others oppose her". The questions will be "How did it come to this?" and "Why did the others allow it?". The individual Crown Wars shaped this development and the page to describe the general development by mentioning all gods and their general action should be this one. You can't expect readers to read this page and then go to (extremely) detailed history sections on other pages. For example, Ghaunadaur and his dark elf-moon elf persecution group are something to be mentioned in his page but that he and other gods provided support among others in the form of fiendish allies but didn't manage to outrun Lolth's headstart belongs if anywhere here.


 * Also this page had, and now has again, some legitimate issues. Whoever wrote it, centered the Dark Seldarine-history around Eilistraee and didn't care about the general actions of others. For example, "Eilistraee's following got mostly wiped out" is seen as more important than "the process and circumstances that allowed Lolth to come out on top.", which shaped the following history more than Eilistraee's breakdown. Furthermore, the entire page was cited by always citing whole books. One can't expect people to look through an entire book, especially not novels which do't have indexes like a sourcebook. Also some parts were simply wrong. A minor example in the timeline is that Lolth's attention was drawn before the First Flowering. I have also serious doubts about whether the authors cited correctly. For example, Eilistraee is described as the "patroness of Miyeritar", but Miyeritar isn't mentioned in "Evermeet: Island of Elves", Eilistraee isn't mentioned by name in Miyeritar related sections of "Lost Empires of Faerûn", let alone as a patroness of anything and "Demihuman Deities" says that Eilistraee had her major following there but no information about the size or importance.


 * Also, may I ask why you left the "War of the Spider Queen" section as it is? I intended to later cut it down because it exhausts itself in actions of individual drow but doesn't really mention, for example, the thought processes of individual deities.


 * Thank you again for reading and taking care of my edits


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222


 * This still is a general overview page, the nifty details don't need to be explained. You can and should expect people to follow links to other pages for details, otherwise every page on the Wiki would be bloated.


 * Picking up your example: the Crown Wars don't need to be detailed each. Telling that the other deities too granted the help of fiends in their wars of conquest to try to retain influence is ok (I'll add it back and expand upon the happenings myself), but I had originally only mentioned Wendonai, because he is the one who eventually led to the taint of all the drow. As for how Lolth became #1, the details of it haven't really been hammered out anywhere. All we know is that it was a mix of the Sundering killing many Vhaeraunites, Eilistraee being in conflict with Vhaeraun and the Crown Wars (with her seducing the Ilythiiri rulers and powerful nobles) info which is already in the article. However, neither LEoF or DD bother or GHoTR to describe in detail how Lolth came on top after the Crown Wars.


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for taking care. I'd love to try to answer to the problems.


 * First, "how Lolth became #1". I cited p.52 of "Lost Empires of Faerûn". The page says that Wendonai got his seduction done and Lolth's church rose to prominence. Furthermore, later cited p.54 clarified that the "seduced important house" was the king's and that he was specifically favored. The motivation was to get Lolth an entire subrace under her. It's not really detailed, just one-two sentences, but it gives a good picture how it went on.


 * Wendonai spreading Lolth's corruption already is in the article, tho.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'll write further below under each of your paragraphs to make it easier.


 * If you want to say--for example--what Vhaeraun did after the descent, don't describe all the operations of his church, tell that they were successful and mention their greater successes and areas where they gained influence. If you add more info, I'll help you with copy-editing.


 * Do you mean the "crystalized roles" under the heading "1372 DR"? I'd love to re-add that because it gives a picture about, "what kind of society did Lolth created with her dominance?", "what problems did that society have?" and "How do the other gods fit in there, what was their clientele like?". Because the only other action was it to


 * I've edited the article to add more of that (what each deity did, what success they gained, who their worshipers were). Before we edit again, specifically, what do you feel it's missing?--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for the quick reply. I edited but didn't undo because some references were weird. Like the one citing p.24-28 of Demihuman Deities for Kiaransalee's action on Threnody, while it is written only on p.23 or citing page 11, the one showing the regalia of the drow clerics, for Eilistraee.


 * First, the changes were mostly of correction nature. Really minor ones like Ghaunadaur taking intelligence from all sort of his worshippers and not only from oozes or Eilistraee battling only her brother, at least according to page 13 of DD.


 * I also added the roles of Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun, because "patron" is a word used for people who sponsor, take control or at least lend their name to support a specific purpose, in their case expansion of territory. Do you have another source in which Eilistraee's role in Miyeritar is clarified? I'm asking this because DD just says her faith was strong in Miyeritar but without a clearly defined purpose she supported, you wouldn't call her a patroness without one. Also do you have access to "Drow of the Underdark" and "Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves"? I don't but the sources are cited. I could perhaps borrow the former over the next days, though.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * Generally, I've seen deities worshiped by a people or a country referred as patrons of them. That's because deities answer to prayers, support the development of their portfolios among those people, and so on. For example, to answer your question, Eilistraee's portfolios include beauty, dance, and song- Since Miyeritar had a cultural, artistic, and magical reinassance (a line which I added back), it's fitting that she's called a patroness (being a goddess of beauty, she encourages her people to nurture it and related crafts, and beauty goes hand to hand with art). Since her faith became strong there, she's also a major one. That's why I used that term for Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and Ghaundaur.


 * My experience with reading about the realms is actually the opposite, gods always trying to become patrons over countries to enforce their will and people generally having a business like "pray for help but divine order? No thank you"-attitude towards gods. A good example would be the "Cormyr-Saga". If you read it, you probably remember the scene in which the princess tries to put Chauntea into the patron position and all other faiths start a rather shameless looking "me too, me too!". Also do you have a reference about the connection Eilistraee-renaissance of art? Because it sounds a bit weird.


 * It’s just that on Japan, a country with several gods, people start praying to those to whom they have already a reason to do so. In other words something around the likes of "the renaissance of art didn’t occur because of Eilistraee but because a renaissance of art concluded did people see a reason to pick up the faith.“. As said before, this is just how the faiths in Japan did spread in the fashion of circumstances to pick up the faith were first and then came the gods. I’m less than sure whether real-life logic can be applied to the realms and moreover unlike the realms, Japan doesn't put much importance to faith, I for example don't know the name of the god in the local shrine back home.

Saya222 (talk) 17:00, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * A patron is someone who supports the development of something and those who contribute to such development. Gods support and promote their portfolios, and they can therefore be considered--by definition--patrons of those who contribute to their portfolio. Vhaeraun has activities and expansion on the surface among his spheres of influences, and given that Ilythiir underwent a major expansion, and that he had the largest follower base there, he can be considered a patron of it. In DD, Eilistraee has beauty among her spheres of influence and she encourages its creation (and it's said that her clergy develop and nurture beauty wherever they go), which would make her a good patroness for artists who follow her. So, similarly to Vhaeraun/Ilythiir, given that Miyeritar underwent an artistic and cultural reinassance, and that a lot of people there followed her, that enables us to call her one of the patronesses of that nation (again, given that she is a patroness for aspects of that reinassance).--Tsammarco (talk) 19:10, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed.
 * Saya222 (talk) 19:27, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * There are some things that I restored, namely Miyearitar resisting Aryvandaar (many of them maintained a resistance even after their initial defeat), its being founded by political refugees (they weren't defectors), how the demons changed the nature of the war (because that's needed to understand the banishment, as I've said answering your question), Ghaunadaur gaining some influence (because he did indeed gain influence in strife-torn regions, and that's worth being mentioned). I don't have access to LP, but I don't remind Aryvandaar ever invading Ilythiir. GHotR and LEoF don't make any mention of it, and Wendonai was summoned during the 2nd war, which was in respones to Aryvandaar's invasion of Miyeritar.


 * Regarding Ilythiir's coronal. The cited pages from "Ascendancy of the Last", p.211-212, deal with the flashback where Wendonai is summoned for the first time and then has a short conversation with the coronal. The coronal explains, that his country is pressed on every side, that Aryvandaar intends to slaughter the Ilythiiri and that he needs Wendonai's power to turn the tables to protect his people.


 * With "resistance quelled" I meant the part that Aryvandaar needed 500 years to quell the resistance.

Saya222 (talk) 17:00, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * That doesn't mean that Ayrvandaar actually invaded Ilythiir, just that the coronal feared it--Tsammarco (talk) 19:10, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * I changed the part to "out of fear".
 * Saya222 (talk) 19:27, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * Saw that you came before
 * Saya222 (talk) 19:28, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * I changed the line about Eilistraee thwarting Vhaeraun's salvage effort, because it makes it sound like she purposefully kept her brother down while enabling Ghaunadaur and Lolth (which isn't true, as she's enemies to them as well, and as in Evermeet she talks about deities darker and more dangerous than Vhaeraun). The conflict was also reciprocal, as in Evermeet, Eilistraee explains that she and her people weren't having it easy in Ilythiir. The referred line in DD says that Eilistraee thwarted Vhaeraun's early efforts to gain dominance in Ilythiir, but by the time of the Sundering, their conflict was already going on for a long time, so it's not like Eilistraee specifically countered Vhaeraun's attempts at salvaging--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * My apologies, but I actually thought she intentionally enabled the other two to make progress. The logic is that, if I’d be someone with a small base with the desire to destroythe largest one, I’d put all my efforts into keeping the largest one down and allow the others to take the room in order to make them enter a brawl against each other, so ideally all three fall down. Otherwise, in my opinion Eilistraee looks like something of an idiot without foresight and that goes a bit too much into the Silver Spider logic, which while interesting in a game, is almost certainly not canon.

Saya222 (talk) 17:00, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * I was the one who rewrote te page, after BadCatMan tagged it for cleanup (the discussion should still be here), but by I didn't meant to imply that what happened to Eilistraee is more relevant than others. When I wrote that the crown wars had a great impact on the Dark Seldarine, and especially "Eilistraee", I wanted to say that the Crown Wars were especially damaging to her, but I admit that the wording that I used is def. misleading. As for the mistakes that you point out, after her banishment, Lolth's attention turned to Toril only after the moon elf entred the demonweb pits, she hadn't thought about Toril before that. Eilistraee being the patroness of Miyeritar should indeed be changed to "a patroness", tho (and DD says that her faith there was strong).


 * My problem with Lolth's banishment was just the timeline. Lolth's attention was turned to Toril during the Dawn Age, which is why it doesn't belong under the First Flowering, written in Grand History p.10. It was why I broke down the Dawn Age into "War of the Seldarine" and "After War".


 * Will correct it soon.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you. You might have noticed, that I broke down the Crown Wars section again into the First, Second, Dark Disaster and Fourth without adding too much if anything to make it easier for readers to put the individual events into chronological order. Or do you think it is more confusing than helping and should be undone? Also I added Eilistraee's church's collapse under Dark Disaster as a downward trend, the idea was to leave the specifics of the fall to the actual Eilistraee-page. Do you think this is proper?


 * I deleted information like the fall into savagery of the Ilythiiri, something better served in Ilythiir's history than here, and also added the experimented iconography in the Second Crown War for this thing was under "Legacies of the Crown Wars". I also wanted to ask whether you have another source with these depictions. I ask this because the source I cited "Lost Empires of Faerûn" only talks about "the offended gods" and doesn't exclude Eilistraee. Furthermore, the idea of a good person tolerating her name to be abused to support a mass murderess like Lolth or being confused with someone like Kiaransalee who enacts, and thus abuses Eilistraee's name to support enacting, disproportionate - and often meaningless - revenge sounds weird to me.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * I think it's ok to leave the new division in place.


 * LEoF doens't even mention Eilistraee in that section, so that could have never been meant to include her her. Also, Eilistraee is CG, and in DD it is said that she is always careful to avoid pressuring her followers and to leave them freedom of choice/expression. She obviously doesn't support being associated with Lolth or Kiaransalee, but offing on her own people definitely isn't her MO. Not to mention that those portraits could have very well been crafted by followers of rival deities to shame her name. I really doubt that the authors intended her to kill her own people. The info about the savagery is needed IMO, because it let us know the influence of the gods of the Dark Seldarine on Ilythiiri and explains why the banishment happened--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * As for the references that you mention, they referred to the whole paragraph, but I've now moved them around as to let you understand to which statement each reference is associated.


 * My apologies, obviously I couldn't clarify the problem. The problem is that "entire books" instead of "individual pages that deal with the topic" are cited. For example, "Evermeet: Island of Elves". That one is a novel. It does have a chapter index but not one based on terms. In that book is written Lolth observed Toril, felt Vhaeraun, looked at what kind of land he patronize, saw Ka'Narlist preparing for war there, decided to make inroads into the dark elves for their ambitions and then came behind the relationship between the dagger and Ka'Narlist, she didn't sense the dagger and then found the mage. It's a very minor mistake but with "Evermeet: Island of the Elves, p152-156" being mentioned it'd be easier for anyone to look up and verify what is written on this page.


 * Will adjust this too, but in truth Lolth's attention didn't go to Toril before Kethryllia's arrival. It's in GHotR and DD too, and Evermeet still reflects it (Lolth only noticed Toril because she scryed Kethryllia). You are right about Ka'Narlist, tho, but considering how things went, I think that his mention is no longer necessary here--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * I cut a large part about Kethryllia, information like her being a founder of a House was superfluous and Lolth did come up before her intrusion with the idea of gaining her divinity back, I'm sorry, I forgot the citation for that one.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, you cited all six boos of the WotSQ-series as a reference. Are you certain that it is right? The only character I remember converting is Halisstra and that one turned back later. Also the Lolth-followers in these books are rather adamant i their faith. So telling that Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee and Vhaeraun gained influence in books in which especially the middle two hardly get a mention sounds too much like a stretch. This would be a good example where it would really help to have pages to look up mentioned.


 * I used the whole 6 WotSQ books as a reference because that initial paragraph referred to the whole WotSQ events. I've added CotSQ references to that. I couldn't add the pages, because I don't own those books anymore.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the information, I'll look through my books and add the references on finding.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * I added specific references, mostly from Resurrection, the only book I own as Kindle and as thus easy to look through.

Saya222 (talk) 17:00, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * You're right abot the WotSQ section, it should be downsized. I had initially left it more detailed because it directly deals with the death of the drow pantheon, but I'll cut the parts dealing specifically with what the mortals did. The part summarizing Lady Penitent can be left as is IMO, as it deals specifically with the drow gods themselves, and as I've tried to nail it down to the key events. Unless you think that it'd be more appropriate to add something more akin to what you wrote for the drow page. I don't think that this is the place to talk about what happened in Eryndlyn or Maerimydra beyond a mention, because this page is specifically about the deities--Tsammarco (talk) 00:53, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * That's an opinion I share. That's why (see drow) was added. For how the drow reacted on the loss of the basis of their society on several levels, legal transition, secular-theocratic power balance, inter-religion violence, complete anarchy, and so on is better served by directing the link to that page and not leave it here.


 * Thank you for reading this long and taking interest and care. I'll edit on Sunday, my apologies.


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222


 * Saya222 (talk) 19:55, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * In the end I was too hasty to undo your edit, my sincere apologies. I will help you with cleaning the text once you're done.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * I've attempted to fix the issues that you pointed out. As I said, if you want to add more I'll help you with cleaning the text, but--again--try to leave the specific details to their respective pages.--Tsammarco (talk) 14:41, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * After our last talk, I made further additions, corrected the time of Lolth's attention being turned to Toril, and added more specific refs for Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur and Kiaransalee gaining followers after the Silence (the one for Eilistraee is Sacrifice of the Widow, but I don't own it anymore so I can't tell the page. It's in the prologue, tho, I'm pretty sure of it). I also added a few more lines to describe the society that Lolth created after the Descent.--Tsammarco (talk) 21:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * I also made some additions, to be precise her goal. I think there is a difference between the drow suffering towards a specific goal, for example vengeance, and suffering for the enjoyment of someone. Of course, writing that forces the question "why do the drow allow this to themselves?" and so I also added the suffocating factor of mitigating change and thus shackling the drow to her by taking options from them. I also changed parts of Vhaeraun's section about his follower base to make it easier to contrast mother and son without increasing the word count. You certainly realized that I excluded the drow cities and the surface regions. The background is for example, in Menzoberranzan his faith was the growing organized opposition, but didn't yet hold real power or in Sshamath his church was special because it was legal and also tried to gain power by legal means. The simple statements "second largest following" and "largest on the surface" would suffice and more specific details would be for the actual page, in my opinion. Do you think that way too, or should the Forest of Mir and Cormanthor re-added?


 * The same for Ghaunadaur because Eryndlyn's cult sprung up more or less at the same as the other two and Llurth Dreir was the product of him winning against anyone else. Also the thought was to clarify why a rebel, who has real power to offer, didn't get many worshippers.


 * No, thinking about it, it's better to not get too specific here. I however added back that Ghaunadaur prospered in strife-torn places and where the other drow gods' presence was weak.--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * I found the sentence too, and made the reference more specific. I’m sorry for formerly deleting it.
 * Saya222 (talk) 17:00, February 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank for always taking care of this


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC)


 * Finally got the PC back from repair, I changed the War of the Spider Queen section. I cut parts that didn't specifically affect the topic of the article, like the judicators' assault on the Promenade and added specific references.


 * Saya222 (talk)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for looking up. I'd love to delete the parts of the assault on the Promenade by Selvetarm or the one of the Promenade on the Acropolis because they didn't affect the gods in any ways and thus belong more into the individual church-parts of them. Or do you know whether it affected them in some way?


 * I'd at least leave the judicars' attacks and moves in place. As I said, it's basically all that Selvetarm did (commanding those attacks) in that war, so it's fitting to mention it. I only added the bit about the Acropolis of Thanatos because the former text was that Eilistraee had ordered the death of Kiaransalee's clerics, which isn't true.--Tsammarco (talk) 19:16, March 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, do you have an idea where the Crescent Blade's decreased abilities are mentioned? I don't remember it but when you give me an idea like the chapter number, I'll look it up.


 * Cavatina's soul survived being killed by it (the sword was meant to destroy Lolth's soul and was therefore given the ability to destroy souls), that's what I meant.--Tsammarco (talk) 19:16, March 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Also may I ask whether you have a reference to base the claim that Eilistraee was cruel enough not to change all of her worshippers?


 * It's not cruelty. We don't even know what Eilistraee exactly meant to do there, or how she helped Q'arlynd. For all we know, Eilistraee might have inteded for the ritual to grant choice, but Q'arlynd might have screwed something. Or even yet, in performing the ritual Q'arlynd and his colleagues--novices in High Magic--got something wrong, and Eilistraee had to perform damage control. Her guidance also seemed to be withdrawn at some point in the ritual.


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * I'm sorry, but I was apparently not clear enough about what I meant with cruelty. Eilistraee bet the fates of her worshippers, she lost the wager and was about to be forced to pay up her gambling debts with things she didn't own. So bilking it was the only moral choice she could do. While non-consensual physical modification is amoral, handing over to Lolth as a winner prize is more so, thus not changing would be the most cruel thing. I'd love to have a reference where it is mentioned that she actually botched even that one. It's an interest of me regarding the next time I'll be a DM, because Eilistraee in this trilogy acts like the quintessential Silver Spider except for that one move, if she failed even that one, it would more easily allow the interpretation that she dragged Corellon down to the board and made him killable for Lolth. It'll be an interesting plot point in the background out of which to make one or the other session to incorporate his followers.


 * What we know is that hundreds (in total between non-ilythiiri and followers of Eilistraee) were changed. Fact is, we don't know for sure wether all of her worshipers were changed, but the numbers, the fact that, after her return, essentially all of her followers--and Eilistraee herself--are still drow (or the fact that Eilistraee has literally never cared about transforming her followers, that this is nowhere in the lore or novels about her except in that book, and that she has always been about helping the drow rediscovering the life and joy that was denied to them, and forging their path in the world as drow) suggest the contrary. Even after the assault to the Promenade, those Ghaunadaur's worshipers who survived (and many of them were killed or driven insane/mindless), split among tens of shrines, would hardly manage to shrink Eilistraee's thousands of followers (a number further increased by those Vhaerunites who chose to join her) to a few hundreds. Even losing 10% of a group is referred as great losses (in fact, it's the definition of "decimation").


 * We have a number of quotes, page 287, that describes what the ritual was to do, "change all drow-worshippers of Eilistraee and those without Ilythiiri-lineage into dark elves", we have 302-303 that tells us the number of them, hundreds of both groups, then we have p.308 that shows Lolth frustrated over Eilistraee's pieces having changed and thus impossible to take for her. Actually, it sounds quite clear to me that intention and content was for the ritual to succeed and change all of them. Furthermore, I always have some doubts about the numbers of Eilistraee's church, gods gain power by numbers and/or level of devotion, Eilistraee's church is consistently described as small so probably devotion was the more important factor, in fact they lack manpower on a level that they actually have to bring back every dead person instead of letting them go.
 * Saya222 (talk) 13:57, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * In the end, the info that we have about what happened in the last moments of those books is very unreliable, because the characters who provide it are. For example, they talk about a sacrifice, when it's obvious that there was no sacrifice and that the Masked Lady did't want her or Qilué to be slain, and when--again--changing the skin color of her followers had *never* had anything to do with Eilistraee. So, in the end, we really don't know, even going by those novels (which, btw, are indeed full of mistakes and plot holes. Major ones are the faerzress being created by high magic and being addictive--when it's in fact false, as proven by many examples--; a novice to high magic suddenly coming up with a ritual that can erase a deity and 1)using it on Kiaransalee rather than Lolth 2)being the only one to ever think of such a thing over millennia, when the elves--masters of high magic--never ever thought to use it to delete Lolth or Gruumsh. Also, the game being a metaphor, as Selvetarm was still sitting at the table after being killed, as no one with half a brain would ever accept to play by Lolth's rules, when they could have continued doing their thing against her without bending to her conditions, and as it was logically inconsistent except as a metaphor. In fact--since the actions of the mortals were supposedly represented on the board--either the moves in the game determined what happened, or the actions of the mortals did. In the first case, what the mortals did--and therefore the whole 3 novels--reflected by the pieces moving on the board, would have been pointless, since the result would have been decided by the game, no matter what had happened on the Prime. OTOH, in the second case, with the mortals' actions determining their own outcome but still being reflected in the game, then the only possibility was that moves on the board became possible only after the equivalent thing had happened on the Prime, and the game would have been pointless except as a metaphor, since the various moves would have been just representations of what happened in the world. There are even glaring mistakes about the most trivial and easily researchable things, from the various rituals to Vhaeraun's mask)--Tsammarco (talk) 19:16, March 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * In-universe, faerzress is theorized to be an unintentional by-product of the First Sundering. But I'm off-topic. The many plot holes and inconsistencies of the trilogy are famous, in my opinion, the recreation of Carceri with one single sentence is the biggest one. But I don't think it's a reason to keep the content out, we can always write a note in the appendix.


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222
 * Saya222 (talk) 13:57, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * A general answer to all your points:


 * 1)We know what Q'arlynd&Co. meant to do (and in the Realms mortals have been wrong about what a deity means to do, especially mortals whose faith is not so trong, lile Q'arlynd). However, rituals don't always go as intended, especially High Magic rituals (as shown by the many which had side effects, or by that to delete Kiaransalee which didn't actually succeed). In this case, we know that it didn't by the numbers of transformed drow that we are given (as, from Faiths and Pantheons, a lesser power needs at least a few *thousads* of followers, no matter their devotion), and by how the situation looks like post Sundering (see my point below).


 * However, we don't really know what Eilistraee herself meant to do, as she has never spoken her intentions, she never meant to give up and in fact kept fighting to take Lolth out (so, that ritual wasn't a "oh, I lost, lets do some damage control" move. Her intervention, as I said, might have even been damage control on something that a mage that had little experience with something as complex as High Magic screwed up). She, as we know, is a goddess that wants her people to make their own choices and find their own path in life, and--as I said before--that is about helping the drow to redsicover the kind of life that they were denied, and forging their path in the world, *as drow* (like, *explicitly* wanting them to living in harmony with other races, accepted for what they are). Given the above, forcing a physical change, one that would even kill a lot of them--as they were found in the Underdark--would be just cruelty, and just not Eilistraee.


 * We're talking here about the Masked Lady and not the Dark Maiden. The Masked Lady is far more brutal than the former incarnation and are practically two different gods. Sentences like "sacrifices need to be made" isn't one Eilistraee you're talking about can say.


 * The Masked Lady--Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's influence--would be as likely to force her followers to give up their drow-ness as Eilistraee with no influence is, perhaps even less so. Besides, Eilistraee-Masked Lady could still be her normal self on occasions.--Tsammarco (talk) 23:48, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * 2)Because of how the afterlife works in the Realms, no matter what Eilistraee did, Lolth had 0 claim on her followers' souls. It is Kelemvor who decides to which deity a given soul should go. Besides, in the novels, if the game had allowed the winner to take over the loser's followers, then why a would a mere change in skin color mean anything? (and for sure the game couldn't have been about the souls of the drow specifically, since Eilistraee and Lolth didn't cover all of them. It was about the fate of the drow only because with Lolth out things would have obviously changed a lot). The scene that you described is more of a metaphor to portray what happened. Besides, re:Eilistraee dragging Corellon in. As I said, Eilistraee didn't give up or admit defeat, she kept fighting, like we see from the books. Corellon spontaneously decided to grant the transformed drow access to Arvandor (although in your game you may do as you please, ofc), and he didn't put his life at risk, at all.


 * The only souls that are forced to go through Kelemvor's judgement are the False and Faithless. The others are taken in by their patron god or a servitor of the same to the divine realm and never set a foot into the City of Judgement. Furthermore, overwriting a divine claim is actually quite easy and it doesn't even require the mortal to be alive. Any imp can form a pact and change the claim, the most famous pacts being the warlock-pacts. Lolth and Corellon are - at least in absolute numbers - the ones who create the most warlocks among gods, though they generally send a servant of theirs to form the pact instead of doing it by themselves.


 * I'm aware of the description in the 3e FRCS, but I remember Kelemvor judging the souls of the dead and assigning them to their afterlife (it's in F&P, it's in the SCAG, his take on the matter of judgement of mortal souls is also central to Crucible, IIRC). After the judgment is done, then the soul will follow the servitor of their deity once it comes. However, since most people worship many deities at once, the guy who decides who gets to claim them is Kelemvor (besides, if souls weren't judged by Kelemvor, how could he establish who was a faithless or a false?). Pacts are another kind of deal, the matter was about which god could have claimed which soul, and since neither god actually owned the soul of their still living followers (as long as they're alive, they can still change their fate), they couldn't in any way wager them.Tsammarco (talk) 23:48, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * You're right on the pact-thing. I realized the logical fallacy on my part.
 * Saya222 (talk) 20:00, March 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * 3)Eilistraee--as a lesser power--needs to have at least a few thousands of worshipers, as per Faiths and Pantheons. Re: your point that her followers are few, but very faithful. A few thousands is indeed a very small number, compared to the whole race (although that number increased when followers of Vhaeraun joined her). A few hundreds in total hardly covers 1/4 or 1/3 of her followers. Eilistraee's followers being nearly all drow after her return with the Sundering (especially given how hard it is to convert Lolthites, and to focus your efforts mostly on a single race, rather than trying your luck with any race--so it's not the same case as that of other returned deities who quickly amassed new worshipers) must mean that only a small part of her followers were turned into dark elves, and that her followers also remained loyal to her (Ed Greenwood's explanation also gives further reason for that).


 * Lolth during the Post-Spellplague era behaved like what is jokingly called an "intelligent idiot". Incredibly smart when it comes down to kick down rivals, but incredibly stupid when it comes down to running things. Conversely drow society is a mess during that time with Lolth having lost quite a lot of influence and especially after the Demon Weave disaster, arcane spellcasters lost any reason to remain loyal to her. So actually, collecting angry dissatisfied converts, who want to break Lolth's neck, shouldn't be that difficult. If these old groups remained, apart from the interesting average age, their lack of action, importance and most importantly their treatment would be interesting.


 * Lolth's efforts in kicking down the Dark Seldarine and keeping them down is exactly the obstacle to overcome here (and she has always been blinded by hubris. Even in LP, she did absolutely nothing concrete. For some reason the whole Dark Seldarine decided to attack Eilistraee--including the guy who is known to be able to put differences aside when it comes to breaking Lolth's neck, and who instead decided to attack his sister in effin' Arvandor. I thought that was very out of character of Vhaeraun, tbh).


 * Her clerics still practice aggressive censorship, they're extremely zealous when it comes to hunting down supposed heresy, and they try to keep the drow in the dark about any alternative. Authors always stress out how hard it is to escape it, especially when you're going to follow Eilistraee, who offers something that--although many drow feel and need within--is radically different from what they're used to (she certainly isn't the first that--say--dissatisfied arcanists would make). If Eilistraee had started from scrap with only or mostly dark elves followers, then there'd be no way that she gained back a base made up mostly of drow followers in like a couple years. That points to what I've already described (especially since she--and Vhaeraun too--have been personally appearing to their own followers to let them know of their return--and this is not only Ed Greenwood's word, it's also found in Death Masks)--Tsammarco (talk) 23:48, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * I thought "building up a follower base" was to be used as a plot hook, and thus the size of their follower base was left vague.
 * Saya222 (talk) 20:00, March 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * 4)The game--as I pointed below--was more of a metaphor than anything else, because of its logical inconsitencies, because of that Selvetarm's scene (which would make absolutley no sense if the game was real), etc... It was a symbol for the battle among the gods of the Dark Seldarine. There is no way a deity can gamble their followers--even more so because, as Ed Greenwood always stresses out and as it is stressed out in a few canon books--the Realms is a polytheistic world. Many of Eilistraee's followers, while idetifying with Eilistraee above other deities, can very well be also followers of others, same for Vhaeraun's, etc. (Lolth is an exception because of her censorship). As I said before, it is Kelemvor who decides to which deity given soul should go. Besides, if the game was real and ruled by Ao, then he would have actually killed the deities who were taken out (all of the Dark Seldarine) and left them to rot, rather than allowing for their comeback.


 * You point one of the problems people have with the Second Sundering out. It's the embodiment of recycling with no rules regarding what came back and what not. If you keep it to deities, ones like Myrkul or Bhaal, even obscure ones like Maanzecorian came back with no real reason given. Also I actually doubt the sava-game to be a metaphor because Grand History talks about the game like a fact.


 * IME, a lot of people are pleased with deities and places that they love coming back (surely it went much better than the end of 3e and 4e, when the backlash was immense). Yes, the 2nd Sundering brought back a lot of deities, but it's not necessarily bad. A better explanation than "Ao did it" or "mortals don't know how" is needed in most cases, but many deites, including the Dark Seldarine (at least Eilistraee and Vhaeraun among them as far as I'm concerned) add too much to just be left to rot (especially with the crappy treatment that many of them were given). On a side note, Myrkul as god of death, Kelemvor as the judge of dead, and Bhaal as god of murder also sound quite nice to me.


 * Yes, GHotR does describe the game as a concrete thing, but that would mean that the whole set of novels described events with absolutely 0 impact on what actually happened, for the reason that I've already explained. Handwaving the game as a metaphor would explain a lot of incosistencies and stupid behaviour. Obviously in the article the game remains as it is canon, unless WotC realizes that it literally doesn't make sense.--Tsammarco (talk) 23:48, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Convinced on my part, but we should keep it here nonetheless, it's canon after all.


 * 5)The faerzress is also explicitly said to be a radiation formed from the processes that shaped Toril's Underdark (the book is 3e Underdark). Lisa Smedman ignored that and made it a product of High Magic explicitly made to keep the drow in the Underdark, by limiting teleport and causing addiction (which is a glaring mistake, honestly).


 * Teleportation is indeed (dangerously) limited with faerzress. Also the claim that the First Sundering was the force that formed the Underdark isn't so off. Though it would be pure speculation, while faerzress is only presumed to be a consequence of the First Sundering, if true large parts of the Underdark would be created by the Sundering.


 * Sure, Faerzress limits teleportation, but it does so naturally. It has existed since before the arrival of the elves, but the writer associated it with a decision made after the Crown Wars. This and the other inconsistencies are why I wonder how these books made it past the editor. Maybe the First Sundering altered it, or maybe High Magic did, but it existed with its base properties even before those events.--Tsammarco (talk) 23:48, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not cutting out the info in LP, I'm adding it in the larger context of all the lore about that we have access to (which is only right, especially for books that warp and distort so much of that lore, if taken alone). If it helps, I've added a clarification about what the ritual was meant to do--Tsammarco (talk) 14:59, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * If I gave you the impression to accuse you of cutting information than I need to apologize, it's not in my interest to do so. Actually I think it has gone a bit overboard and too detailed. For example, the information that the Crescent Blade was possessed is important for the church of Eilistraee but not for the pantheon as a whole. I added the part with Kiaransalee's clerics because I found it important that they weren't accepted into the church. Under whose influence or orders the killing was done is something for the specific page. The entire "no one saw the fight" part from Eilistraee-Vhaeraun doesn't really add something. Simply saying "Failure at assassination => Masked Lady" is shorter and convey less information. Also, I reread the passage with Qilué letting the Ghaunadans in. It was part of a plan that "Vhaeraun-following clerics of Eilistraee" (a confusing thing isn't it) intentionally botched by joining forces with the supposed enemy.
 * Saya222 (talk) 19:53, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * I've added a few needed clarifications (like why Kiaransalee's clerics were killed, or the Crescent Blade being possessed by Wendonai). Will reply fully to your points later--Tsammarco (talk) 20:17, March 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Best Regards and thank you again


 * Saya222
 * Saya222 (talk) 18:58, March 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for the answers and especially for the explanations.


 * I added an overview of the pantheon. The content is "Lolth is the boss", "she's opposed by the rest", "the relative power levels" and then the degree of the domination by the example of accessibility and/or accuracy of information on the others.


 * My question here is, whether it should be added onto the drow-page under "Religion" or here.


 * Also I deleted the parts of the members, that didn't concern itself with the portfolios. Both to make it more similar to the Seldarine or the Draconic pantheon pages.


 * Best Reagrds


 * Saya222
 * Saya222 (talk) 20:00, March 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * It's fine as it is here. If you want to add something to the drow page, just put a link saying "see also: the Dark Seldarine".--Tsammarco (talk) 20:24, March 7, 2017 (UTC)

Number of transformed drow
It's only because that would interest me a lot, but in wich source is it stated, that somewhat around 20% of all drow were redeemed in 1379? I thought it is unknown how many were really redeemed. As far as I know (through the LP Series) it could be between some hundred and some thousand. (Historicus 18:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC))


 * I cited three pages in "Ascendancy of the Last". The drow who were transformed were "Wendonai-taint-less" and/or "Eilistraee-worshippers". This is page 287. The next pages 302-303 gives us an information about numbers, hundreds. So "Number of all worshippers of Eilistraee=hundreds of drow".


 * I hope it answers your question.


 * Again best Regards and thank you


 * Saya222

Eilistraee is alive post Sundering
Eilistraee is alive post Sundering.

In Ed Greenwood's upcoming novel, Spellstorm, it is revealed that:

SPOILER

[...]Twas no easy thing, being the goddess of magic. A different deity than the rest, in a world so steeped in the Art, a divinity that had to care more for mortals, or embrace utter tyranny. And at the same time share the Weave - the Weave that was Mystra, as well as being so much more - with other deities, or what remained of them, like Eilistraee[...]

SPOILER

So, I've asked Ed Greenwood some questions about this:

SPOILER

1)Q: Does that thought (the passage about Mystra sharing the Weave with Eilistraee) refer to the present time? A: Yes, that refers to the present time.

2)Q: Are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun separated again? A: Yes, separate again.

3)Q: Did she manage to survive to the events in LP like some speculated (in a fashion similar to how Mystra did, for example) and emerge again after the Sundering (or has the Sundering simply brought her back)? A: Mortals know only of a reappearance, post-Sundering; details to be revealed, perhaps, in the fullness of time (this now 100% confirms that Eilistraee is alive in the present time).

4)Q: Also, in what condition is Eilistraee now, and what are she and her followers doing (and -since I'd like to edit the FR wiki page about her- is she now a demipower, or retained her status of lesser power)? A: Current condition? Unknown to mortals (including power level/ranking); sorry.

5)Q: Finally, where is Qilué's soul currently (since we know that the Cescent Blade couldn't destroy souls anymore, given that Cavatina survived it). A: As for the soul you mention: also unknown. My bet would be on "a voice in the Weave" (there may or may not be more on this status, if not that particular soul, in future fiction, but it's too early to say for certain).

QuestionsAnswers

SPOILER

This pretty much confirms that Eilistraee is alive and that mortals know of her reappearence, but we don't know about her current power/ranking (but we know that she is Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden again, and no longer Eilistraee, the Masked Lady).

--Tsammarco (talk) 22:34, April 16, 2015 (UTC)

Cleanup
What should be done to cleanup this page? --Tsammarco (talk) 12:56, April 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * Mainly cleaner and simpler formatting, a more readable history, and some copy-editing and rewriting to remove talk of "recent" (which isn't valid with the wiki removed from the timeline). — BadCatMan (talk) 13:28, April 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, I will work on it as soon as I find some time--Tsammarco (talk) 13:53, April 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * Is this acceptable, or needs more work?--Tsammarco (talk) 17:37, April 3, 2016 (UTC)


 * Much better looking, thanks very much. — BadCatMan (talk) 08:13, April 4, 2016 (UTC)

Good Article status

 * Correct : yes
 * Referenced : yes
 * Formatted : yes
 * Clean : yes
 * Nearly complete : yes
 * Policy-adherent/Demonstrative : yes