Talk:Wu-haltai language

I cannot work out what's wrong with the references tags on this page. It's the same code that's worked for me on every other page. Help! — BadCatMan (talk) 12:44, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * Fixed. No worries, it happens to all of us. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 13:23, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * I must have scanned this a dozen times and still missed that bracket. Thanks Moviesign. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:24, May 1, 2016 (UTC)

Oni Language
I think the language of the oni is distinct from Jotun, at least for the oni of the east, as opposed to the oni of the west. Monstrous Compendium Kara-Tur Appendix seems to indicate such. 3e sources Oriental Adventures and Monster Manual v.3.5 simply say Giant, yes, but the former is not an FR source and the latter is focused on the western variety of oni. Just something to consider. ~ Lhynard (talk) 23:32, May 1, 2016 (UTC)


 * I did wonder about this, but plumped for Giant, as I didn't know if a source would give a distinct oni language. Oddly for a Kara-Tur source, Ronin Challenge specifically mentions "ogre magi", and later lists "giants, oni, ogres, ogre magi" to suggest it treats them separately. Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms also seems to treat oni and ogre magi separately. For the Northern Wastes/Ama Basin area, it says "the ogres of the region (and most of Kara-Tur) communicate in the tongue of ogre magi." So, not oni then. I feel Giant is still the most appropriate language.


 * Oni and ogre magi will be worse than kenku and tengu to separate and distinguish, I think. — BadCatMan (talk) 00:40, May 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * Hmm, full quote for context: "It is worth noting that, although similar to those spoken in the west, the languages of oriental hobgoblins and hill giants are separate dialects, and the ogres of the region (and most of Kara-Tur) communicate in the tongue of ogre magi." — BadCatMan (talk) 00:42, May 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, Monstrous Compendium Kara-Tur Appendix says this:
 * The common oni stands 7 to 8 feet tall, resembling a thickly-muscled humanoid whose arms and legs are covered with coarse hair.&hellip; Their skin is normally red, but other colors have been noted, including green, black, orange, and purple. Blue-skinned oni also exist, but these are more commonly known as ogre magi, because they have as much in common with the western ogre as they do they with eastern oni."
 * So it seems that the "ogre mage" is primarily just a blue-skinned common oni. Oriental Adventures 3e says, "The ogre mage described in the Monster Manual is in fact a variety of oni." ~ Lhynard (talk) 01:20, May 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * We touched on this issue before at Talk:Vaprak. I agree, I always thought they were the same, but some sources seem to treat them as separate. Let's see.
 * In 2nd edition, Oni and Ogre, the blue-skinned version of the common oni is the western ogre mage. The oni entry says they speak "the language of their kind" and the ogre mage entry says they speak "their own special language, and the speech of normal ogres", but this oni/ogre mage tongue isn't specified.
 * In 3rd edition, Oriental Adventures bases its oni very closely on KT's 2e oni, with similar powers. It says the standard Monster Manual 3.5 ogre mage is a variety of oni. Both give their language as Giant.
 * In 4th edition, in Monster Manual 4th edition, the oni mage is also called an ogre mage, and is as close as 4e is to the old blue-skinned ogre mage. It also speaks Giant.
 * Actually, there doesn't seem to be a contradiction between these: the western ogre mage is in each case the blue-skinned variety of the common oni, which is in turn one of the three kinds of oni: common oni, go-zu-oni, and me-zu-oni. According to the 3e MM, the ogre mage is a cousin or more intelligent variety of the regular ogre.
 * Back to the language issue, 2e oni/ogre magi speak their own unnamed language, while 3e and 4e oni/ogre magi speak Giant (though the later editions do simplify languages significantly). Since the former language is unnamed, there's no contradiction, so the implication is that oni and ogre magi speak a version or dialect of Giant/Jotun. Unless a Dragon article upends it all. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:28, May 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * Some more info: Ogres, according to Giantcraft, p. 27, speak their own specialized Ogre language, which is likely related to Jotun, but its not Jotun or even one of the other Jotun dialects. They speak Jotun as well, as do all giants. FR usually adds languages to what core says, without replacing them. That is, the MM says ogres speak Giant; Giantcraft says, "Yeah, they speak Giant, but it's the Common of giant-dom; they speak Ogre amongst themselves." ~ Lhynard (talk) 02:54, May 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * The "Speaking in Tongues" article we love so much mentions "Jotun (giantish with many strong dialects), Jogishk (ogrish patois of Jotun)". The language tree in Giantcraft shows all the giant languages descend from Jotun, so we can imagine a Jotun languages group, which is basically Giant in later editions. (Hey, Lhynard, feel like a monstrous languages project? :p ) So, Jogishk is one of these, as Giantcraft didn't mention ogres specifically.


 * Anyhow, it doesn't mention ogre mage or oni at all. In 3e, they're both Giant-type races, and they speak Giant, so it's a fair assumption to say they speak an unnamed Jotun-based language like the others. Short of a name, we can call it ogre mage language or oni language.


 * BTW, the 1st-edition Oriental Adventures for oni closely follows the 2e oni, also agreeing that blue-skinned common oni are ogre mages. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:36, May 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * Jogishk, of course. I knew I had seen the name somewhere and was confused why I hadn't seen it in Giantcraft.


 * Oh, if you look at the bottom of Language families, you can see that the "monstrous languages" are already part of the deal. :)


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 10:13, May 2, 2016 (UTC)