User talk:BadCatMan

To limit the length of this page, content has been relocated to the following archive pages:
 * User talk:BadCatMan/2012
 * User talk:BadCatMan/2013
 * User talk:BadCatMan/2014
 * User talk:BadCatMan/2015

Revision Undo
"Undo revision 279833 by Zhentar (talk) Please don't remove valid lore without good reason"

There was good reason. The source was from 1995 and Dungeon #170 lists the Castle as completely rebuilt. That section not only isnt up to date, its unnecessary for an overview section, especially since "Places of Interest" has its own section which I was in the process of adding to when my changes were removed. I will be removing it again in the future and moving its contents in a newly created Valjevo Castle page in a history section.

Calling a tavern owner "mysterious" and the tavern itself a "great place" is subjective and while it may be "lore" in a very loose sense, it is opinion and not fact. It was changed to "popular" to be more objective.

I have no intention of removing facts from the wiki as a whole, only to move them to more appropriate areas and with citations. Obviously subjective statements, however, I have no concern in preserving.

--Zhentar (talk) 07:37, January 4, 2016 (UTC)


 * It's not the wiki's goal to present only an up-to-date version or current situation. Rather, the wiki's goal is to present lore at all points in history, so it may be useful in all eras of play. That's a consequence of our Remove Wiki from Timeline policy. So, we maintain the existing lore as history, rather than remove it, and then add to it with fresh history. Erasure of content isn't the solution. Instead, write it in past tense, add a date for context, then add new lore. Move it to a better location, but don't delete unless it's patently wrong or unsourceable.


 * You also moved some information around unnecessarily. The Cracked Crown is "The city's most expensive inn." according to The Moonsea sourcebook, but if you move that outside the citation, it's no longer clear where that information came from.


 * Yes, the article is untidy and cluttered, and much of this lore should go on separate articles. But the lore shouldn't be deleted out of hand until it is.


 * Furthermore, subjectivity isn't a concern. This is a D&D setting after all, and the wiki should be useful as such. Opinions are a thing we report on. "Mysterious" is how people view the NPC. "A haven from the tumult of the city" is how NPCs view the inn. These are facts (if that is what the adventure module truly says) that the wiki should present.


 * As a new member, we have to pay extra attention to what you do to ensure that it maintains and improves the wiki along the lines of our policies. Too many come in, do something strange, and disappear. Your edit summary was contradictory. You said "Added notable locations" but that's not what happened. You said "Removed superfluous text", but I don't agree it was superfluous, only faulty and/or should be on a separate page. I don't know that you intend to create a Valjevo Castle article and develop Phlan (though it would be utterly fantastic if you do). Too many new editors come in with a grand project but don't follow through. So, I can't trust a new editor will remove something one day and maybe restore it the next.


 * It sounds like you're taking on a huge project here. I would not recommend it as your first project. Phlan's a big, oft-used place and this is a big and cluttered article to overhaul, and there'll be too much text to shift while you learn the ropes. Instead, I recommend you start on something small and self-contained, like an article for one of those taverns, and branch out from there. Ask us if you have any questions, and, finally, welcome to the wiki. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:31, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

Back in what seems forever ago, I overhauled the Zhentil Keep page and added the majority of the content that is there now. I took a break from D&D and FR for a while and am now interested in finishing what I started. To be fair, the Zhentil Keep page itself I left unfinished (the history section is meant to get its own page for a starter) and still needs a lot of work. You recommend not starting with Phlan, yet it is the starting point for a new campaign Im going to DM, so overhauling the page while I research serves me in the long run as well. Honestly, the whole Moonsea area is needing a dedicated archivist and Im a bit miffed at seeing all this fame and fortune going to the Sword Coast while the Moonsea crumbles and my favorite city remains a sad pile of rubble. Perhaps a well documented Moonsea will inspire further development from the powers that be...

Zhentar (talk) 22:59, January 4, 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah! I apologise, you're not a new member, you're a returning old member. I'm afraid 2009/2010 was way before my time here, and I've not seen your name around any histories. In that case, welcome back! Anyway, things have changed quite a lot around here since then.


 * I didn't mean not to do Phlan at all, more that it would be better to start on a smaller article, such as a tavern or NPC from Phlan, or Valjevo Castle itself. It's easier to manage, and gives you a place to put lore that's unnecessary in the main article. That starts clearing the main article for development.


 * BTW, you made 10 edits there today. I find an easier approach is to copy the text to a word document, do and undo all the changes I like, then paste it back and publish. It saves on undoing changes, and makes it easier for others to get a handle on what you're doing.


 * Phlan received a lot of attention in 5th-edition adventures recently, which User:Unknown user 11 created pages for the NPCs of. That's where Madam Freona's Tea Kettle came from.


 * Phlan was one of the first places I discovered in the Realms, through the Pool of Radiance novels, so I'm looking forward to exploring it more fully through this project of yours.

Ulthar I
I made a mistake with the page name of two character, I create the page Ulthar but after I put inside all info about Urmas NPC, so I went to change Ulthar's page name with Urmas; after I tried to create a new Ulthar page but the system block me and said it's need an administrator to solve the matter. I create Ulthar I as page and need only to cancel the "I" from the page name thank and sorry for the mistake (Unknown user 11 (talk) 14:16, January 28, 2016 (UTC))


 * User 11, I fixed the page for you... there was already a Ulthar page... So I named that page the Darkhorn and fixed the stone giant page to Ulthar :) - Darkwynters (talk) 22:57, January 28, 2016 (UTC)

thank Unknown user 11 (talk) 23:25, January 28, 2016 (UTC)

Air in DidYouKnow?
Hello! I have created the article air to replace the redirect this week. Might it be fitting and possible to include it in the Realmslore on the Main Page? (I also plan for fire and water in the forseeable future). Thanks for considering it. Daranios (talk) 13:08, January 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * Cool. Template:DidYouKnow/current should be unblocked, so see if you can add one of your own. Otherwise, I'll work on it when I get a chance. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:27, January 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * I checked and unfortunately it is blocked to me. So It would be nice if you could do it. Thanks a lot! Daranios (talk) 13:52, January 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * It's specifically marked as unblocked, but I guess the block on the Main Page cascades down to it. Okay, I'll do it next. — BadCatMan (talk) 13:53, January 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * Done. Let me know if you have something more interesting to say about it. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 14:01, January 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah, "cascading" option is what it says as reason for the protection. I like the air sentence :-). Daranios (talk) 19:04, January 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * And fire is done. Daranios (talk) 19:26, February 3, 2016 (UTC)


 * Alright, I'll note it for next week. — BadCatMan (talk) 10:46, February 4, 2016 (UTC)


 * Finished the round with water.:-) Daranios (talk) 12:20, February 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * Great! I'll add it to the list. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:28, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Game screenshots
Hey there, I noticed you deleted a screenshot of Cespenar from Baldur's Gate II. Are game screenshots a faux pas on this wiki? I was thinking of replacing a few of the low-quality infobox images from the BG series with crisp versions, but if such things are frowned upon I'll focus my efforts elsewhere. --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 11:45, February 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh no, screenshots are accepted, I've put up a few myself. I just felt it was a rather poor image: you could barely see the imp, even at full size, and I felt the image of the player's party, game interface, and conversation window were unnecessary. We generally prefer clear images that focus on their topics, and don't show unnecessary game information (no rules, interface, etc.) that lift the reader out of the wiki experience. We still have some wonky images around, so I'd like to see some improved images.


 * Have a look at Ilbratha, History of the Vast, and quiver of plenty for examples of how I've used BG screenshots. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:56, February 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Noted. Thanks for the swift response. --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 11:59, February 19, 2016 (UTC)

Indexes and appendices
I couldn't find an answer to this in your Manual of Style, so here goes. Should the wiki maintain indexes on games, such as Neverwinter? It could be useful, but could also get rather large and unnavigable (although, some sort of collapsible table could be employed). Furthermore, should the Appearances sections of appendices be broken up by media type? --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 06:35, February 25, 2016 (UTC)


 * I haven't gotten up to this in the MoS yet, but I'm glad people are looking at it. :)


 * I'm in favour of indexing games, treating games like any other source and adding all that can be added (my wiki philosophy is inclusive and completist). As you say, size issues can be handled. The question is having an editor willing to do the work: it someone's willing, then all good; if no one is, I wouldn't call for it. The Neverwinter MMO is a different beast though, as it would be ever expanding with game updates. So, nice to have, but not a must-have.


 * Generally, I'm in favour of breaking up Appearances by media type: it helps to know which is a novel, which is a sourcebook, which is a non-canon game, etc. I like the following format, which avoids excessive section headings:


 * to give:


 * Novels:
 * The Fat Gnome Trilogy
 * Gnomeland


 * Sourcebooks:
 * Campaign Setting Nth Edition


 * Not all pages do this, and it's a bit needless if there's only one or two entries. — BadCatMan (talk) 08:17, February 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * That clears up quite a bit. I'll begin a Neverwinter index&mdash;a slightly daunting task for one person, but my hope is that if people see there's a framework in place, they'll be more inclined to add to it. --Ir&#39;revrykal (talk) 08:23, February 25, 2016 (UTC)


 * Alright, good luck! And thanks for getting involved! — BadCatMan (talk) 08:37, February 25, 2016 (UTC)

History of Spells and Monsters and Such
So, I thought of starting a forum post on this, but since you are the one doing it, I figure I'll bring it up here first. In your awesome expansions of articles&mdash;which I quite enjoy reading&mdash;with information from the comics, you often throw some tidbits into History sections. For example, you note that such-and-such a spell was used by someone in the comics to do such-and-such.

To me, it seems like this would fall more under some kind of Notable Uses section, just like we have Notable Instances of Foo for other article types, such as races or classes. I feel that History should be reserved for the actual history of the spell, such as who invented it, its reputation through various time periods, ways it changed through all the "cataclysmic events that changed magic" (*cough*, editions, *cough*), etc.

Likewise, in, e.g., the Kenku article that includes details of specific kenkus doing their thing. I would expect the History section here to be about the history of the kenku race as a whole. The whole paragraph there, IMO, should simply be placed under the heading of Notable Kenkus, even though they are not singled out as individuals.

I hope my points make sense and are not to nit-picky.

~ Lhynard (talk) 21:58, March 16, 2016 (UTC)


 * Not at all. I was dissatisfied with some of my additions, but didn't think of "Notable Xs". I've been adding stuff mostly for the sake of adding content (context for images, and such) and completism, but only cases I felt were particular significant or interesting (e.g., a clever use of pyrotechnics on the fire elemental, but not a mundane use of magic missile).


 * But I'm ambivalent on dividing the existing History sections. I feel a small History can include more minor appearances of the subject: these give context or historical significance that might otherwise be lacking. A history of the kenku race is currently lacking. OTOH, a lengthy history on, say, orcs in Faerun shouldn't include minor orc characters as would appear in a smaller article. In that case, historical context is already provided by the actual history. I'm not a fan of very short sections anyway.


 * So, I agree, but I would only divide if it gets long and unwieldy.


 * BTW, my ISP went out Australia-wide, so my internet access has been poor today and may continue to be crap for some time. — BadCatMan (talk) 12:13, March 17, 2016 (UTC)