Talk:Selvetarm

In the novel Condemnation Selvetarm appears "clutch[ing] an armory of swords and maces in its six thickly muscled arms, and each of its chitinous legs ended in a vicious pincerlike claw. [His] face, perversely enough, was that of a handsome drow male." (chapter 20) should this multi-armed bipedal form be mentioned? Doonval ti bekk&#39;har (talk) 02:12, August 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure, that would go under Manifestations. Feel free to try putting it in. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:37, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Question
About the scene, where it is discovered, that Lolth organized Selvetarm's death. What part about it, actually left doubt, that she actually did so? Saya222 (talk) 16:30, March 26, 2017 (UTC)


 * To me it seemed more that Lolth was willing to sacrifice Selvetarm, than actually wanting to lose him. Supposedly, by losing Selvetarm she took a big risk, because she wanted to let Eilistraee take her other adversaries, but it was indeed a big risk.
 * In my opinion, keeping Selvetarm alive would have been more dangerous than dead. His followers were rebellious in “Sacrifice of the Widow“. They were filling their ranks, casually killed Lolth’s priestesses and maintained cordial relationships with right-wing members of Vhaeraun’s church, if not with Selvetarm’s support at least with his tolerance, keeping the grandson alive would have been like keeping a plateworm in her stomach. After all, Lolth was really happy over Selvetarm’s followers not only “coming back“ but asking to be allowed to come back to her.


 * Yeah, Selvetargtlins were getting annoying, but with their low numbers, and with Selvetarm still being her champion, their god could have still been a useful tool for Lolth. Even with the dices that you mention below--Lolth simply took a big risk, because she could have rid of Eilistraee instead of letting Selvetarm die. She let Eilistraee keep playing, supposedly to use her against her other foes, but her plan basically consisted of sacrificing Selvetarm in order to miss a surefireway to get her daughter out of the way, in the hope that she could take care of the rest of the Dark Seldarine for her. It doens't seem a smart or "I had calculated everything from the get go" plan to me, tbh (see also below). There's another simple fact going against it: if Lolth had considered the church of Selvetarm a threat of any kind, and if killing Selvetarm had been her soultion to it, she--a *greater* deity--could have killed him in matter of seconds and with extreme ease (I mean, he even lives with her, in her same plane, so there would be 0 trouble in reaching him and killing him), instead of letting Eilistraee go on and still play. Things simply don't add up--Tsammarco (talk) 18:21, March 27, 2017 (UTC)


 * She couldn't know, for example, that Eilistraee would have defeated Vhaeraun (odds are actually against Eilistraee in such a conflict), she only later learned about Vhaeraun's plan, and she couldn't have known that Eilistraee wouldn't have tried to save Selvetarm (if Finder can resist Moander's corruption, then Selvetarm can be freed from Zanassu in theory).


 * Out of Corellon’s three children, Vhaeraun is probably the one who inherited the least from him. Part of the charme playing one of his follower is, that the god is so weak, enough to lose against his son who couldn’t even maintain a steady church. Furthermore, a god fighting on its own terrain is at a huge advantage, that was why it was deemed a given, that Eilistraee would win a frontal fight, and the necessity of Qilue’s warning, as well why Eilistraee’s propaganda machinery claimed Eilistraee fought on Ellaniath and not on Arvandor. The information flow from Malvag to Qilue was Halisstra captured Malvag, dangled him before Cavatina, Cavatina killed him, freed the soul he stored, said soul was revived, and Qilue learned the information was able to warn Eilistraee, while Halisstra was capable of buying Cavatina’s and Qilue’s trust.


 * That has little to do with what I meant (also, I didn't know Corellon had a third children, is that also true in the Realms, or is it part of the 4e general lore?). As I said, from what I understood, Lolth wanted Eilistraee to rid her of other deities, so she let her live, but sacrificed Selvetarm for that. However, Eilistraee was one of the least likely deities to succeed at that. Not only that, Lolth's act of giving away Selvetarm would have paid off only if:


 * 1)Vhaeraun attacked Eilistraee in the most stupid way possible, which is also out of his character--even more so because he'd be much more likely to try a temporary cooperation in such a situation. His plan was also very unlike him. Does this: "Hey, lets try to waste resources in an attempt to charge into *effing Arvandor* in order to kill my sister, so her followers will be united with mine (hint: things would have been much mroe complicated than that) and we will take down Lolth" sound like a plan worthy of Vhaeraun to you? I really like Vhaeraun too, and was very disappointed with how Smedman handled it. But then, the whole series was a huge disappointment, so whatever.


 * 2)Kiaransalee also randomly decided to attack Eilistraee rather than settling her grudges with Lolth (because otherwise the followers of Eilistraee wouldn't have attacked those of Kiaransalee).


 * Those were all things that had little chance of happening, and that Lolth relied on in order to make her sacrifice of Selvetarm worthy. That's why I said that Lolth's plan in losing Selvetarm wasn't calculated, but a huge risk (on a side note, I don't recall any propaganda that it was Eilistraee to attack Vhaeraun on Ellaniath. Also, Eilistraee is likely weaker than Vhaeraun, going by number of followers, which is most of what determine--I mean, she is on the lower end of the possible range of divine rank values for a lesser power).--Tsammarco (talk) 18:21, March 27, 2017 (UTC)


 * Besides, Vhaeraun--given his character as described in DD--wouldn't be likely to charge headstrong into Arvandor trying to kill his sister; he is actually more likely to propose a temporary cooperation to her to defeat Lolth (in DD it is said that he is very well capable of putting hostilities aside when it comes to kill his mother), and IMO things would have gone like that, if Lisa Smedman and Phil Athans had respected even a little the actual lore of the characters. So, she would have found not only Eilistraee, but Eilistraee+Vhaeraun against her. It was indeed just a huge risk taken by Lolth, and then she claimed that things went as intended. Hope this clarifies--Tsammarco (talk) 23:28, March 26, 2017 (UTC)


 * I need to apologize. I completely forgot, that you already told me, that you didn’t own the books anymore. I'm sorry, the quoted scene is the one in which Lolth cheats in plain sight during rolling some dice. Eilistraee asks for the judge, Ao, who then says that Lolth gave Eilistraee loaded dice to guarantee that she would win her roll, killing Selvetarm, and explained this as the reason why it Lolth wasn’t cheating and her roll was valid. If the metaphor was taken out, she organized things for Eilistraee to kill Selvetarm, by putting her acknowledged champion, Wendonai, and her Chosen, Halisstra, as aid for Cavatina.
 * I think, she had things quite under control from the beginning to the end.
 * Saya222 (talk) 13:27, March 27, 2017 (UTC)


 * She hadn't, for the very reasons that I talked about above. As I said, it was a big risk that played out in her favor, 'cause of plot armor and disregard for the lore on the author's side.--Tsammarco (talk) 18:21, March 27, 2017 (UTC)