Talk:Dragonwrought kobold

Merge Discussion
The following conversation was originally posted at Talk:Urd:

Should these guys just be merged with the Dragonwrought? I can't help but feel they are the same thing.


 * No. Urds are distinct species distantly related to kobolds. I see no statements in sourcebooks that urds and dragonwroughts are one and the same. they just both have wings. -Artyom.pavlov (talk) 09:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I cited the Grand History of the realms as my source, pg 9-10 clearly refers to them being the same, you also undid all my edits on urds sourcing the 5e Monster Manual? BlackRamSage (talk) 13:22, 30 May 2021 (UTC)


 * 5e simply refers to them as winged kobolds, not dragonwrought. They are similar but not the same creatures. 2e books clearly state that urds are "fying humanoids that are distantly related to kobolds." -Artyom.pavlov (talk) 13:40, 30 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Correct, 5e MonsterManual & Volos Guide to Monsters winged kobolds are called urds, my edits cited this, I was also citing 3e Grand History pg 9 which made it clear that urds were a group of winged kobolds, & the first urd was a dragonwrought kobold. I backed all this up, Im not saying that in 2e what you're saying is not true. BlackRamSage (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)


 * See the response on my talk page. -Artyom.pavlov (talk) 14:08, 30 May 2021 (UTC)


 * For the whole day, I actually agreed with BlackRamSage here in thinking that they are the same, but I could see Artie's argument as well. I think one could reasonably take either viewpoint. I have added the following to the end of the Urd article to summarize what I believe the whole issue comes down to:


 * It is not known whether such kobold-hatched urds were capable of producing urd offspring as were the original brood of dragonwrough kobolds supposedly led or created by Kuraulyek.


 * I have expanded Urd thoroughly to merge in all 2e, 3e, and 5e content that I could find. Thank you, BlackRamSage, for bringing all this to our attention. Let me know what you think.


 * The current issue now is what to do with this Dragonwrought article. The term itself only appears in 3e. Notably, the term refers to more than just "flying kobolds", i.e., "first-generation"; not all dragonwroughts have wings. My opinion is that all kobold-hatched urds are dragonwrought kobolds, but not all dragonwrought kobolds are urds. This observation alone is what caused me to switch my view into thinking that we should maintain two separate articles. Furthermore, not all urds are dragonwrought kobolds, because an urd-hatched urd cannot be called a kobold.


 * I continue to believe that it is canonical and correct to call all winged dragonwrought kobolds urds and that all winged kobolds are both urds and dragonwrought kobolds.


 * Anyhow, those are my current views, but I am happy to see more discussion here.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 05:28, 31 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Looking at this, I don't believe TGHotR is saying urds = dragonwrought kobolds. Looking closely at the text, it says "...the elite urds were saved by one of their own" and "The leader of the urds was Kuraulyek, a blue dragonwrought kobold" (the only mention of dragonwrought in relation to urds) and "Kuraulyek, the First of the Urd" (twice). That's capital F, indicating a title, not a count. From a strict reading, I can only say that only Kuraulyek is a dragonwrought kobold, not the following urds he created or spawned. It doesn't quite say Kuraulyek is an urd either, only one of their own, suggesting only kinship. It seems more like an evolutionary tree: kobolds to dragonwroughts to urds, not equating them. At best, dragonwroughts are ancestors or urds, not urds themselves. BadCatMan (talk) 12:41, 31 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Sure, I agree that TGHotR doesn't explicitly say that "urds = dragonwrought kobolds"; it's only a speculation, but it's certainly a fair one, (on par with assumming that the The Book of Inner Alchemy is from Shou Lung, which I'm fairly sure the author did not intend. :P )


 * (I would argue that the sentence "&hellip;the elite urds were saved by one of their own," means that Kuraulyek was definitely their "own [ kind ], an urd, but I understand how one could stretch the meaning to mean something else.)


 * However, 5e does say that "flying kobolds = urds", and TGHotR says that Kuraulyek was a flying kobold. Therefore, Kuraulyek was an urd, and all dragonwrought kobolds with wings are also urds.


 * Ultimately, I agree that TGHotR does not equate the terms, as urd-hatched urds are not dragonwrought kobolds. Furthermore, since not all dragonwroughts have wings, I think these two articles should not be merged.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 14:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I want to apologize to Artyom.pavlov, reading through all this again I see myself as being kind of impatient & rude. I also want to thank all of you, I didn't know my edits would bring such discussion. I think Lhynard is correct when he says I & Artyom were both right, just coming from different viewpoints.


 * It seems like pre-3e, urds & kobolds were related species of reptillian humanoids & considered goblinoid, then the 3e text TGHotR made kobolds actual dragonspawn, created from the blood of dragons. This is where the confusion comes from I think. So coming from a post-3e view of D&D's in-game history, I agree with Lhynard when he says:
 * "I continue to believe that it is canonical and correct to call all winged dragonwrought kobolds urds and that all winged kobolds are both urds and dragonwrought kobolds."


 * In RotD the origin of dragonwrought kobolds is not clearly stated, just that they had close kinship with dragons which allowed them to grow wings. TGHotR says that when dragons mated with kobolds, the strongest of the offspring grew wings & worked in teams called Urds. BadCatMan, I see your point, it is not 100% clear that Kuraulyek was the first to become an urd (grow wings) & he could just be the leader, though that's all resting on that capital F.


 * Kuraulyek was called a dragonwrought, had wings & was part of the elite caste of urds. I think this implies that the term 'dragonwrought' is not a distinct race of kobold, just a term for one with a dragon in it's family tree. Not all dragonwrought had functional wings, though it is said they could grow in with age, so its possible even wingless dragonwrought had the potential for flight.


 * In modern day 3e, dragonwrought kobolds were born seemingly at random in the tribe from unusually marked eggs. This is how urds are born in 5e, where they are functionally identical to kobolds except for the wings. Before the dragons mated with kobolds, none were able to grow wings, so I think any winged kobold would have to have some dragon ancestry & therefore could be called dragonwrought, including urds.
 * all winged kobolds (including urds) = dragonwrought but not all dragonwrought had wings


 * Now Kuraulyek & all the urds flew to the Thunder Peaks, separating from the rest of the kobolds. Canonically this makes space to introduce pre-3e concepts of an urd race that's more distinct from kobolds & more importantly passes on wings to all their offspring. From what I'm aware there is no post-3e mention of urd-only tribes so we do not know if eggs hatched by urds always result in winged kobolds. Only that in 5e urds hatched in kobold tribes even without any adult urds present.


 * So to answer the original question: No, I don't necessarily think the Urd & Dragonwrought pages should be merged. However I do see them as being the same in many cases especially because post-3e one gives rise to the other & in 5e the term 'dragonwrought' is completely dropped & urd is used in all cases of winged kobold. I think dragonwrought was just the in-game canon way to explain how urds & kobolds were related but one had wings after 3e retconned the two races into dragonspawn.


 * There does need to be some consolidation of these subtleties into the page(s) or edits, for example the current urd page describes them being distant relatives of kobolds & represents them with an image of a winged imp-like creature. It doesn't match with the history section that is all post-3e & says that urds are rare hatchlings to kobold mothers.  BlackRamSage (talk) 15:55, 16 June 2021 (UTC)


 * This is why we are here, these discussions help in ironing out lore inconsistencies and occasional incoherence. In the end, it led us to improving the lore! Cheers. Artyom.pavlov (talk) 15:59, 16 June 2021 (UTC)