Talk:Eiko

More Major Conflicts
FYI, the capital of Wa was not Uwaji until 1245 DR. Are you sure that Eiko lived there? It was moved to Wa by Matasuuri Shogoro after he won a war against the daimyo to become shogun. I always took this to mean that Shogoro was the first Matasuuri shogun. ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:25, September 5, 2020 (UTC)


 * No, mea culpa, I guessed Uwaji for the sake of having a more precise location, it was late and dumb. Eiko is explicitly a shogun though.


 * I'll correct and rename the article for the likely name. — BadCatMan (talk) 00:31, September 6, 2020 (UTC)


 * Is it possible that the nation had multiple shoguns until 1245? ~ Lhynard (talk) 00:55, September 6, 2020 (UTC)


 * Okay, moving what I said in Slack here for the record... In every book to cover Wa, the shoguns are of the Matasuuri clan, with the current being Matasuuri Nagahide. Except in Ninja Wars, where the shoguns are all of a Nagahide clan, starting with Eiko Nagahide. The author got every single name back to front, assuming the surname was last. While the Ninja Wars NPCs are self-consistent (though this explains why I was so confused playing it), the shoguns are completely misnamed. I wondered: should we try to correct them?


 * Matasuuri Shogoro didn't become shogun until 1663 (1245 DR), so Eiko here and Takahiro Nagahide can't be Matasuuris. They also can't be Nagahides, because that's specifically the given name of the modern shogun. While we might imagine a Nagahide clan instead to resolve the issue, Masanori Nagahide does exist when the Matasuuris should be in power.


 * Wa clearly had shoguns before Matasuuri Shogoro, as in the Blood of the Yakuza history on pages 5 and 6. Nitta Shogoro, the Hidden Shogun, is much too early in 669 (and his similar given name is suspicious in itself). The Shogun of 1624 is unnamed, but could be either Eiko and Takahiro, or one between them. As we can hardly call them Nagahides, I would propose just dropping the Nagahide family name entirely, naming them simply Eiko, Takahiro, and Masanori. Are there any other early shoguns known? — BadCatMan (talk) 01:06, September 6, 2020 (UTC)


 * The Matasuuri family certainly existed before the battle at Shido Plain when Matasuuri Shogoro united the nation in 1245, so I don't know that it means that Eiko and Takahiro could not be Matasuuris, just not Matasuuris who ruled the whole nation yet. The fact that Matasuuri Nagahide is mentioned in Ninja Wars in a way that makes it sound like he is in the same line makes me still think that they should still be Matasuuri shoguns, just pre-unification shoguns.


 * But it is speculation if that is even a thing, so maybe you are correct that just making their articles given-name-only is best.


 * Yes, we also have Nitta Shogoro. This was before the nation fell into major civil conflict and when the emperor still had power. Nitta seems to have been the military commander for the then emperor.


 * As far as other shoguns, there was also an unnamed shogun in Wa year 1624 1206 DR, but you already noted that. (This shogun presumably ruled from Iiso but maybe not.) The Matasuuris are already mentioned before that date, some 50 years earlier, claiming land in the north, where Aru is. This unnamed shogun clearly did not rule all of Wa at the time, but he seemed to have the power to give islands to Shou Lung


 * There was also General Yoshibei who was a "Sengoku-daimyo", which is translated as "warlord", so it seems to have been a very similar role, but only for Nakamaru province. This was very early though.


 * ~ Lhynard (talk) 01:31, September 6, 2020 (UTC)


 * P.S. To make things even weirder, Oriental Adventures makes the claim that all shoguns were chosen from the Hidetomi clan. See my note under the government section of the Wa article.


 * Now that is weird. I have a feeling Oriental Adventures is set significantly earlier than the KTCS and the OA/KT adventure modules, or is "out of time" to explain such differences and discrepancies. For example, OA p136 refers to "the lower end of the peninsula... are several petty kingdoms, tributary states of the Shou Lung Empire", which seems to refer to Koryo, yet the three kingdoms were united around the 1330s DR, though that's a minor issue. The capital of Shou Lung has a completely different name, while the capital of T'u Lung was specifically renamed in the KTCS, apparently quite some time before. Anyway, the OA 1e doesn't intend to present a campaign setting, just some sketched ideas for one (it's not even two pages), so I'd say everything from there should be considered as superseded by anything that follows.


 * Anyway, it feels like the Hidetomi clan ought to be the shoguns before the Matasuuri clan, because they're the only other option. Renaming this shogun Hidetomi Eiko would be a convenient fix, but would be an outright alteration of the lore. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:27, September 6, 2020 (UTC)