Talk:Church of Vhaeraun

I will add sections about priestly equipment, magic, centers of worship, titles, and add more info about the clergy (including Darkmasks, and Masked Traitors, which deserve their own page).--Tsammarco (talk) 11:30, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

Questions
Dear everyone,

I'm Saya222 and I'd love to ask three questions regarding the newest edit.

The first one is simple correctness. There is a section Under Eilistraee and I would love to know whether and if yes how much should be transferred to the Churhc of Eilistraee-page.

The second one is that there is a case of lore contradiction. A WotC product contradicts Ed Greenwood's candlekeep forum entry. The rules are clear on that WotC supersedes. My question is how are such things handled? Is it normal to simply delete it or to write a note which essentially says "Ed Greenwood wrote in the candle keep forum different lore and that was" in the appendix?

The third one is about a template. It's from the adventure league and I know that the template for it is but I can't find the common structure for it on the Help:Templates-page. May I have the page for it?

Thank you for reading through

Best Regards

Saya222 Saya222 (talk) 22:53, November 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * I think that the passage about the difficult cooperation between Eilistraeeans and Vhaeraunites post 1375 DR should be included in both articles.


 * I don't own the adventure that you cited, but--unless it makes a general statement--it doesn't conflict with what Ed said. He in fact said that while Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are now allied, some of their followers still fight. The followers in Szith Morcane could simply be part of those. In any case, I'm curious about what it states about Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and their churches, if you feel like typing it here.


 * Likewise, many of the inhabitants of the Promenade were killed, but Eilistraee hadn't lost most of her followers yet. Could you type here the passage where that is stated? That I know, the Promenade had less than 500 drow living in it (and that was after Vhaeraun followers came in), while Eilistraee, as a lesser deity, had at least a few thousands of followers by then.


 * Also, IIRC, it wasn't Halisstra who warned Eilistraee (she was fighting Selvetarm in the Demonwebs at that time), but her priestesses.


 * The part about misinterpreting the deities refers specifially to Ilythiir, not to the dark elves in general. Eilistraee had only a small presence in Ilythiir (she was strong in Miyeritar at the time), and wasn't seen in a good light there, while Selvetarm didn't even exist. LEoF clearly refers to the main deities of Ilythiir at the time (in fact it doesn't even mention anything associated with Eilistraee or Selvetarm, when it describes those misinterpretations).


 * That said, thanks for your work, you researched really a lot of lore for this article--Tsammarco (talk) 23:52, November 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for the quick answer and your editing. I will answer one by one to the questions.


 * First, I'm sorry, my wording was really bad in the article. I think there is a real lore contradiction because the statement was that the deity Eilistraee opposes the deity Vhaeraun. Also if you're interested, DDEX 3-16 has an army of Eilistraee followers taking part in sacking Maerimydra. Those who played it told me her treatment wasn't good though.


 * The statement about most of Eilistraee's following being dead. While writing this, I'm not at home, so I can't give you a page number (I'll write it later) but after the Promenade fell, other shrines were also attacked via portals from the main temple. I took this as the reason why only a 4-digit of people changed despite the formerly existence of far more people. Large scale dying also was one of the reasons why Q'arlynd was chosen cast the change dark elf ritual despite being second choice. Though, 5e made followers for every revived deity fall from the sky en masse and some logical explanation should be made.


 * The part with Halisstra is really my mistake, I'm sorry.


 * The part with Ilythiir's misinterpretation was another case of bad wording, I thought due to the entire section above being written about Ilythiir it would be evident but obviously it wasn't. My apologies here too. Also thank you for excluding Eilistraee out. The information about Selvetarm was connected to the one with the Yuirwood-section, do you think mention about the result of that one's birth should be mentioned.


 * I delete the War of Three Leaves section, that war is -17100 DR and thus after the Sundering.


 * Again thank you for the editing and righting mistakes


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222


 * P.S. I forgot to write about the deleted War of Three Leaves. That one was in the Grand Histories of the Realms.


 * Also I can't take all the credit because several people helped me in getting pieces of knowledge, the adventure league for example came from those who bought the bundle. But still thank you.


 * Thanks for clarifying. Before changing the lore, I think I'll purchase the adventure next week and read what they said, to see if there's a way to renconcile the two pieces of lore (or ask Ed himself on Twitter, to see what he has to say about it. He's really, *really* good at making sense out of contradicting lore, and he has already done that for some of the 5e incongruences, like the one about Tiamat being trapped in Avernus). I'm actually sad to hear that they are already overwriting Ed's lore. I was so glad to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun at peace, and honestly it just makes sense for both of them to no longer actively fight each other, and focusing on the real enemy (plus, they're both alone in their battle, and could really use an active ally). Although Ed did specify that any hate or similar feeling between the two siblings has evaporated, but that their ideals and modus operandi remain deeply different and conflicting, so maybe they could still clash in certain circumstances (i.e. if followers of Vhaeraun keep practicing slavery, then Eilistraee/followers would likely try to stop that).
 * As for Eilistraee's followers getting a bad treatment in that adventure, heh. I guess that they all die, or that they are written as hypocritical bastards, or both. WotC seem to really enjoy to do that since Lady Penitent. Are there any info on Vhaeraun and followers there? I'm actually interested in both siblings.


 * The problem apparently wasn't hypocrisy. The adventure was the last of 16 or so adventures of a longer story and it was a "the alliance gathers to fight"-scenario. In that scenario one of the armies were the forces of Eilistraee and unlike the others they appeared apparently out of nowhere with no interaction beforehand and background than "they just appeared" . This "suddenly appearing to take the rewards" combined with them being almost useless or even a liability was considered the problem by my friends. They said that unlike the other groups who suffered a lot of problems over the stories and about whom they cared because the heroes solved the problems with together, they had simply no justification to be a liability apart from being weak. Also they said that the swordancers' (all-female) battle attire consisted of being practically naked and the mental picture of an army of half naked women charging at an army with with a sword in hand was considered as ridiculous as it sounds.
 * That said, I don't know what exactly made them a liability but their treatment as reward snatchers, they got the city, made those who played the adventure not angry but annoyed.


 * About the followers of Vhaeraun, I've read that adventure and they don't appear as a group, just the Hidden who are introduced to the party through Kâras, yes the same from the City of Spider Queen and the Lady Penitent trilogy, he mysteriously revived and was again a priest of Vhaeraun in the Hidden, probably an oversight but that one surprised me.


 * About most Eilistraee's followers being dead, remember that--while the Promenade suffered heavy losses--Ghaundaur's minions were decimated too, and his trapped avatar was banished to a Maze plane. So, yes, their remaining forces would have needed to split among a lot of shrines, and then face the defenders. I think that it's unlikely that many more followers died, even if the mage who were supposed to cas the ritual did. Unless the novel specifically says that most followers were dead, I don't think that we can write that


 * I talked about Selvetarm and Eilistraee in Ilythiir, because in the article it was generally stated that the deities of the Dark Seldarine were depicted as spider gods, and that all the deities of the Dark Seldarine killed their followers for that (when Selvetarm and Eilistraee in fact couldn't and din't, respectively). IMO it isn't needed to add more info about Selvetarm, because--IIRC--Zandilar asked for the help of Vhaeraun himself when the elves of the Yuirwood were in danger, so it's mostly about him, as his church wasn't really involved (so I guess that the info that you have already added is enough)


 * I know that the war of three leaves happened after Eilistraee met Cornaith and Sharlario Moonflower, but I added it as an example of what Ilythiir would eventually bring in the future, and that Eilistraee had warned Sharlario and Cornaith of in Evermeet (since that part of the article deals with her warning). In any case, I won't add it to the article again, since it is growing large as it is (it would probably be needed to create different pages for the various centers of worship, and then put links in the main page, like it was done for the church of Eilistraee and Ilmater pages)


 * Best regards--Tsammarco (talk) 13:34, November 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you for the reply.


 * About the --almost extinction of Eilistraee-followers-- I do think it was added to decimate the numbers so much too keep them from having influence in the Post-Spellplague, but now is a different time and I'd agree with you that this kind of explanation would be better. About the "choice to become dark eves", do you have something to quote because the ones who were changed didn't seem to have chosen it for there was at least one who was absolutely horrified at what the one called "becoming weak", also the caster Q'arlynd the caster was surprised. His ritual certainly didn't affect all of them though, otherwise there is no explanation to the 5e-following. We solved it by downgrading the deities to demigods and quasi-deities.


 * I've wrote some parts regarding the question about the new lore in one of the paragraphs above under yours.


 * Again thank you


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222

Saya222 (talk) 15:26, November 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * The followers of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun aren't even mentioned in any post-LP product (Vhaeraun gets the skulkers, tho, but only at the very end of 4e), so yeah, they likely didn't have any influence post-Spellplague, but we don't know if it was for their numbers, or because they were weakened due to Eilistraee's absence (or her presence only through her floating mask form that Ed suggests she had during that time). No, I don't have any quote about the ritual leaving a choice, that's why I added the [speculation] template, but now that you mention that passage (which I had forgotten, since it's been a long time since I've read those books, and I don't own two of them anymore). I'll remove the part about it possibly being a choice.


 * --Tsammarco (talk) 15:37, November 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, I got the adventure. What it says about Vhaeraun is:
 * "Vhaeraun is the drow god of thievery, drow males, and surface raiding. Although the two were opposed to one another, Vhaeraun resided in the Demonweb Pits in the area bestowed upon him by his mother, Lolth. He is also opposed (and was at one point slain) by his sister, Eilistraee. Due to their persecution by the predominate priestesses of Lolth, the faithful of Vhaeraun are loosely organized and operate covertly"
 * The passage is rather confusing in its usage of tenses. It seems that it is talking about the past, since it refers to Vhaeraun living in the Demonwebs and being slain by Eilistraee, without mention of his return (although it is kinda implied). I've asked Ed Greenwood for clarifications about this matter, and will report his answer here.


 * On a side note, Eilistraee and her followers don't appear in that adventure, but in the next one, where they for once aren't treated badly. They are portrayed as rather weak in power, but they are there to try to help the drow of Maerimydra against Graz'zt.
 * "Saradreza Oussmtor/Faithful of Eilistraee:The scantily clad Sword Dancers of the good-aligned drow goddess of song, beauty, swordsmanship, hunting and moonlight stand out among the other groups. While drow, these beautiful women are friendly and welcoming of everyone. They see the chance to retake Maerimydra and the aiding the drow of Szith Morcane as a chance to rally drow with no interest in remaining under the shackles of Lloth's tyranny. The high priestess of their small circle is Saradreza Oussmtor. She is charismatic and warm-hearted and views this opportunity for cooperation as the best chance to spread their goddess's message. For the pre-assault objectives, the Faithful are considering aiding in convincing the Friendly Dead to ally in the attack." If the PCs succeed at the adventure, the Eilistraeeans get to stay within Maerimydra alongside the drow of Szith Morcane.


 * EDIT: Ahh, I've just now read what you said about the new lore (I had missed it). And yes, the "scantily clad" part is annoying, especially because the priestesses of Eilistraee don't go in battle without armor (on the contrary, they use whatever most practical gear they can get for a given situation). If you combine that with their being low powered, it does make you think of the "damsel in distress" trope, which they are definitely not. But in the adventure, while they are definitely not strong, from what I understand they do lend their help and go into battle alongside the PCs and the other warriors, and as a reward they get to stay in Maerimydra (staying in a place that is probably more than large enough to accomodate all the drow that took part to this event doesn't seem a grab to me). So yeah, they could have been treated better (and they could have been introduced before the end), but it's at least better than I was expecting (hypocritical "holier than thou" people). And I was too surprised to see Karas there, but I too believe that it must have been an oversight (in fact the adventure says that most descriptions are taken straight from CotSQ, which honestly makes the conflicting lore about Vhaeraun even more puzzling)--Tsammarco (talk) 00:49, November 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * did I make you buy two adventures? In that case my apologies, I referred to 16th because my quote was from the 15th.


 * I hope it didn't cause problems.


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222
 * Saya222 (talk) 15:45, November 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * No need to apologize, lol. I didn't see any group of Eilistraeeans in DDEX03-15, so--since you mentioned them being involved in Maerimydra--I thought that they would appear in "Assault on Maerimydra", and I was interested in both the pieces of lore about Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, so I would have eventually bought both anyway--Tsammarco (talk) 17:38, November 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * I read the adventure finally too and to be honest, I found the eilistraeeans' treatment horrible.


 * If they really were a newly introduced party then they were a party no one asked for and no one knew about and the players had no control whether or not to accept them. This was especially problematic because anyone who sat at the table would ask themselves "where did they come?", "what's their track record?", "why are they just now appearing?" "why do have to trust them?" etc.. That they are there to increase their influence and thus turned the players intentionally or not into the plot's pawns is certainly not how the players should be treated.
 * Though, while they weren't nefarious, they aren't there for any reason but to have them there and that's really not a treatment any PCs and NPCs deserve.
 * On a side note, now they have a presence to speak of, so let us hope that the next Underdark campaign, I think the one after Storm King's Thunder, treats them better.


 * Best Regards and I'm sorry for the long writing


 * Saya222


 * Saya222 (talk) 16:09, November 25, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, as I've said, I agree that they could have treated way better, and that it wasn't good. However, it wasn't as bad as I feared. They went there to help against the demons, and saw the cooperation as a good opportunity to spread a message and support those drow who wanted to be free from Lolth (this is what it is said in the adventure). I totally understand your points about them popping out of nowhere, being hard to trust, and so on. However, they didn't have selfish motivations, and what they get in the end is a place to stay within the ruins. It doesn't seem to me that the players were pawns or manipulated.
 * About their presence, don't the drow of Szith Morcan have a presence in Maerimydra too now? I think this would include the Hidden and other followers of Vhaeraun there. I agree that it will be interesting to say how it all plays out. The next Underdark campaing will likely include the Undermountain, and it will likely happen at the end of 2017 (the one after the giants is supposed to be Chult/Mezro).


 * About the issue of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun being in conflict again, Ed has given an answer. He said that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun aren't at war, and that there's more going on (although he said he couldn't speak more about such lore, and that it would have been published in the future), but their followers are back to skirmish often. (https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/800564045418000385)--Tsammarco (talk) 17:55, November 25, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear Tsammarco,


 * thank you, both for lore and and the information about publication.


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222
 * Saya222 (talk) 16:22, November 26, 2016 (UTC)


 * About the template, if the document is a free downloadable PDF, then we use the Cite web template. If you have to purchase it and use a reader like a Kindle or a Nook, then it would be Cite digital book. If you give me a link to your source, I will create a template for it, if one does not already exist. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 01:27, November 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dear Moviesign,


 * thank you for the offer.


 * The informations would be:


 * Title: Szith Morcane Unbound (Adventure Code DDEX 3-15)
 * Adventure Design: Robert Adducci
 * Development and Editing: Claire Hoffman, Chris Tulach, Travis Woodall
 * Debut: February 5, 2016 (the date played on adventure league)
 * Release: March 1, 2016 (date opened for purchase on the dmsguild)


 * In the case a purchase link would be needed, it is this one.


 * Please ask me further for more information.


 * Again thank you for the offer


 * Best Regards


 * Saya222


 * Ah, I searched around and discovered we had a discussion about this a year ago. I guess it is past time to make this a reality. Let me tinker with it and I'll post something on the Forum. &mdash;Moviesign (talk) 15:15, November 20, 2016 (UTC)

Evensong
It wasn't the Evensong. Lisa Smedman made a mistake in those books. According to all previous sources, the Evensong is an intimate ritual that all followers of Eilistraee perform at the end of their day. It is a wordless message to their goddess (usually involving a personal dance and song) in which they let out all the emotions, experiences and reflections that they have gathered in the day for Eilistraee to listen. In the Promenade of Eilistraee this ritual took the particular form of the Flamesong, the most important personal prayer for the Dark Ladies and Maids (priestesses and novices, respectively), in which they danced around a flame or a candle. They would sing freely for their goddess and dance following the rhythm of the music as it came, until the flame was existinguished. (see Demihuman Deities).
 * In the novels the following sentence is written "The sound of male voices singing the Evensong hymn was just wrong." This sentence is the reason, why the first section shouldn't be written as "communal chorus" but "Evensong". I know Demihuman Deities and Faiths and Pantheons but other novel entries have either all-female rituals like in Silverfall or ones where males joining meant physical assault like in Extinction. In the novel Storm of the Dead, Qilué needed to enforce the "males are allowed rule" top down and only after having double checked with Eilistraee whether this was alright with her. All this should be mentioned in an article.Saya222 (talk) 21:47, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * Smedman gives her definition of Evensong in Sacrifice of the Widow, and she mistakes it with a generic mass chorus. I can't point to the page because I no longer own the book, but it is towards the beginning. It follows that other mentions of the Evensong by that author also refer to it. There are female-only rituals (those who are reserved to the priestesses, like the one we witness in Silverfall), sure, but the other ones are not exclusive. The Evensong has always been a very intimate thing, a moment of connection between Eilistraee and her followers, and it has always been a sweet thing. In one of his answers, Ed Greenwood also says that no one would ever dream to prevent a male from dancing to Eilistraee.--Tsammarco (talk) 21:58, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * Really? My imagination of the Evensong was a rather harsh thing. "Letting out all emotions" sounded to me like letting out all anger and frustrations gathered over the day to start over clean into the next day. Smedmam's version of a harmonious thing was what perplexed me there. But now to the topic, what Smedman wrote at the beginning of the book was not a definition of the Evensong, but just that there is a place where priestesses gather to sing their Evensongs (page 58). Furthermore, there is this sentence "Males weren't invited to join Eilistraee's sacred dances, nor could they lend their voices to the Evensong." (Sacrifice of the Widow, Page 170). Per policy of this wiki, this here is canon and not what Mr. Greenwood wrote in the Cadlekeep Forum.Saya222 (talk) 17:40, May 18, 2018 (UTC)

By definition, this can't be denied to anyone, being an intimate and private ritual (what Smedman describes is no ritual in particular, just a communal chorus). As we have already discussed, this is *far* from the only mistake that Smedman made in her books (they have been retconned for a reason. On a side note, the retcon is even deeper now with WotC's take on the elves/drow: the drow's appearance has always been the way it is now. No curse, no nothing--like it was in 2e).
 * Retconned? That's something I didn't know. Is there a site or something where one can read what was retconned and what not? Now the passage with dark elves being brown always surprised me because Ka'Narlist's description was exactly that of a drow.Saya222 (talk) 21:47, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * So is the description of the drow gods. As for the retcon, it's what the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes tells (or at least the people who own it are saying that). Even setting aside the return of the drow gods (that is once again re-stated in that book), the whole ending of the novels was retconned, as 1)drow have always been such, no curse, no descent, etc... 2)No one goes to Arvandor, not even the elves (they now reincarnate, like the 4e devas), therefore making the whole "Corellon allows them into Arvandor" point moot. EDIT: someone else who owns the book clarifies, and point 2) isn't true. 1) still stands, tho.-Tsammarco (talk) 21:58, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * That's interesting, may I ask whether there was a prerelease or something or is your acquaintance an employee at WotC? Regarding the information, wasn't Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes a setting neutral book, basically a Fiend Folio 5e-version? I thought whatever that book will say won't have an impact on this wiki if it contradicted realmslore. I mean drow exist outside of Toril and they have their own origin stories. The FR-version is just the most detailed and complex. The others are basically "we were always drow and our enmity with elves is because we lost against them at some point in history."Saya222 (talk) 17:40, May 18, 2018 (UTC)

As for it being a concerted effort, males can normally participate to most Eilistraeean rituals. And Eilistraee herself has her own ways to show them her favor when they need it, through, for example, moonfire (see Demihuman Deities).--Tsammarco (talk) 21:05, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * May I ask what this information have to do with the topic at hand? The first sentence means there are some rituals, males aren't allowed to enter and the other is a blessing with no security over why they get it, how strong it is and for how long it lasts, but again I don't see why these are mentioned here.Saya222 (talk) 21:47, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * It was to point that Eilistraee does want males to take part in songs and dances (in fact, I said that in the article)--Tsammarco (talk) 21:58, May 17, 2018 (UTC)