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Forums: Helping Hand > Death of the Living Forgotten Realms

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In early 2008, one of our users proposed that the Forgotten Realms Wiki should host the Living Forgotten Realms, an international organized play meta-campaign.

This was suggested despite the Living Forgotten Realms already having their own wiki that covered the exact same material. No one objected, and so this user and a handful others created a whole bunch of articles related to the Living Forgotten Realms. They also asked Wikia/Fandom staff to create a separate namespace to keep this material separate from the main focus of the wiki.

Since there already was an existing "official" wiki, the effort here at the Forgotten Realms Wiki never really caught on. Most of the content on this wiki was written by the same user who made the original proposal. They stopped adding information at some point in 2009. The Living Forgotten Realms stopped receiving support from Wizards of the Coast in 2010. The "official" Living Forgotten Realms wiki kept going until 2013.

With that in mind, the Living Forgotten Realms content on our wiki is:

  • An unofficial replica of non-canon information about a series of linked home games.
  • Abandoned, as it was never embraced by the actual Living Forgotten Realms organization, who chose to keep to their own wiki.

Having read through the Living Forgotten Realms content available on our wiki, nothing of value would be lost if we simply removed all of it. I therefore propose the following:

  • All articles and files related to the Living Forgotten Realms project should be removed.
  • The "Living Forgotten Realms" namespace should be removed.
Note that we would still cover the official and canon parts of the Living Forgotten Realms, i.e. the modules released by Wizards of the Coast.
Ir'revrykal (talk) 12:01, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

~ Lhynard (talk) 12:12, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I support this whoteheartedly. One question, do we have a link of the official LFR modules?
Ruf (talk) 13:04, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Agreed as well. Rest in Peace.
~ Artie (talk), 9 November 2021 (UTC)
What LFR materials are actually on the wiki? I mostly see a catalog of adventures and "scenarios", so I would ask (a) what is canon in the context of this material? (I vaguely recall hearing that WotC declared "some" of the material to be noncanon at some point), and (b) does it fit with our ethos on preserving otherwise lost media related to the Realms to keep a page that catalogs all of this material, even the stuff that WotC has since abandoned?
Arodp88 (talk) 13:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
For the sake of easy navigation, here is the LFR main page, here is the LFR category, and here is the external site where LFR material appears to still be available for download.
Arodp88 (talk) 13:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
The issue Arodp88 brings up is related to LFR, but not directly relevant for the discussion here (just pointing this out to avoid confusion).

It is still a point worth mentioning, though. This wiki's current position is that all organized play content with Wizards of the Coast's seal of approval/officialness should be covered. This excludes all of the content published after LFR lost official approval, of course. Removing the Living Forgotten Realms content discussed in the original post has no bearing on this at all.
Ir'revrykal (talk) 13:50, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I suppose I just outlined the source of my concern rather than the actionable part of it, so let me clarify: of all the material present in the LFR portal, what are we actually interested in keeping and to where will it be moved? Will we simply be moving the adventure lists to a new page? Should we construct an article explaining what LFR was? Do we want to take any steps to preserve the canon material by updating deadlinks to archived or otherwise still-existing versions of the adventures? It's not clear to me what the actual scope of this project would be.
Arodp88 (talk) 14:14, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
One technical point: I don't think we can remove the Living Forgotten Realms namespace. There is content stored in it (even if it gets deleted, it's not unrecoverable).
Moviesign (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Opposed. I think it should be maintained as an archive on the wiki.
Regis87 (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Support deletion. I think this falls outside of the scope of a lore wiki.
--SilverTiger12 (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
@Arodp88: We would be deleting all of the content in the Living Forgotten Realms namespace, because none of it is official or has any bearing on what the actual LFR was.
We will still be maintaining information on the actual LFR, just like we would for any other official organized play campaign—but this is really a separate matter.
As for the official LFR modules, these can be linked to on their own respective (regular-namespace) articles on our wiki.
Ir'revrykal (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
If someone wants to archive these pages, they can run the wayback machine on them before they get deleted. It is fan content however, and goes against the wiki's homebrew policy regardless.
~ Artie (talk), 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I encountered the LFR pages a lot when I first started here, but it was still running at the time. After that, they barely turned up and when they did I didn't know what to do with them, so left them in the too-hard basket. So, first, thumbs up to Ir'revrykal for taking the initiative.

Now, reading through the old forum thread and this one, and the pages themselves, I am, as usual, on both sides of the fence. While these pages were an abandoned duplication of the LFR wiki's efforts, the LFR wiki is now lost and its link goes to a dodgy phishing site. Similarly, the majority of links go to deleted websites and Yahoo Groups, which shut down last year. So, there is information here that exists only on the Forgotten Realms Wiki. (Whether it's worth keeping is not for me to say.) Deleting the pages, and their snapshots of D&D history, would erase this information entirely from the internet. Regardless, it's not our place to curate and archive this either. So, first, as Artie says, let's Wayback Machine them so they are preserved for posterity.

Like Adventurers League, we do want to cover Living Forgotten Realms, though I think we need only a single page for an overview of its rules, arrangement, regions, and leading names, with more pages for individual scenarios as normal for adventure modules. We don't need the information on individual store games, clubs, and groups, of course. The homebrew and duplicated lore can also be deleted. So, I see this as a big merger project, compiling the valid information on a single page and removing the cruft.

PS: I compiled the LFR namespace pages at User:BadCatMan/Sandbox and have begun archiving them at WBM.
BadCatMan (talk) 06:03, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I've finished archiving the LFR pages, skipping only the Talk pages, which were only wiki technical matters.
BadCatMan (talk) 11:19, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I have gone through every single LFR module and filtered out the unofficial ones. I have created a list of all the official modules at the Living Forgotten Realms page, modeled after the Adventurers League page. I am also slowly creating articles for the individual modules (helped by SunderedShor). Our coverage of LFR is now significantly better than the old set of pages, and no official information will be lost if we delete them.
Ir'revrykal (talk) 11:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal as outlined by Ir'revrykal at the top of this Forum thread. I think the links in BadCatMan's sandbox should be moved to the External Links section of the Living Forgotten Realms page. I have asked about the possibility and consequences of deleting a custom namespace but haven't received an answer yet.
Moviesign (talk) 01:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I've begun deleting the tagged pages in the LFR namespace. Thank you very much for the hard work, Ir'revrykal.
BadCatMan (talk) 01:34, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, the custom namespace can be deleted as long as there are no pages in it. Otherwise, those phantom pages will show up on some Special page reports.
Moviesign (talk) 03:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Alright, I've deleted all the pages in the Living Forgotten Realms: and Living Forgotten Realms talk: namespaces. Anything with information I've archived on Wayback Machine, but the talk pages only discussed setting up the pages themselves, so I cast them into the digital void. It sounds like the way is clear for the namespace itself to be deleted. Or would it have been better to move them to the main namespace first, then delete, to leave no revision history in the LFR namespace?
BadCatMan (talk) 03:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this.
Ir'revrykal (talk) 11:37, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

According to my information, deletion of all pages in the namespace is all that is required. I believe I can undo the changes that created the namespace in the first place.
Moviesign (talk) 18:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)