Editing Forum:Frozenfar and Northwest Faerun

{{Forum Helping Hand header}}
{{Forum post
|Hello all!<br />
Recently when cleaning up a number of articles that needed a lot of TLC, I noticed the organization of certain regions of [[the North]] were either inaccurate, unclear, or both. Before myself or any other editors move forward about which articles and categories belong in which parent categories. 

I began this with a rewrite of the [[Frozenfar]] article, but as the article states, that region is not well-defined across the various sourcebooks and editions. It is debated that some locations are a part of the Frozenfar in some editions, while they are not in others. So far the ones up for debate are:

;Islands:
* [[Gundarlun]]
* [[Ice Peak]]
* [[Purple Rocks]]
* [[Ruathym]]
* [[Tuern]]

:1. While, [[The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier|NGSF]] 39-43 lists all of these islands under the section of [[Frozenfar]], it describes the Frozenfar as the places ''"so far north people could freeze."''

:2. Page 92 of [[Storm King's Thunder|SKT]] lists [[Ice Peak]] as southeast of the [[Sea of Moving Ice]]."

:3. Page 56 of [[Legacy of the Crystal Shard|LCS]] campaign guide lists the Frozenfar as the "lands (that) fall into four broad categories" — [[Icewind Dale]], the [[Cold Run]], the [[Spine of the World]] mountains and the Sea of Moving Ice.

I maintain that Icepeak should be included as a part of Frozenfar, while the other islands should be omitted due to them being hundreds of miles away from the mainland region of the four locations listed above. While Ice Peak isn't technically a part of the Sea of Moving Ice, it is included in the Frozenfar section of [[The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier|NGSF]] and [[Legacy of the Crystal Shard|LCS]]. 

The other islands are often depicted in maps as being further south than the Spine of the World Mountains. Additionally, all of the remaining islands save for [[Gundarlun]], experienced sub-arctic climate most of the year. This is inconsistent with in-text description about the [[Frozenfar]].

While we shouldn't try to guess as to writer's intent and meaning, I feel like most of the islands were included in that section was a geography mistake, or an attempt to shoehorn in these locations. According to the map of [[The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier|NGSF]], Gundarlun and Ruathym are located as far south in the Sea as [[Neverwinter]] and [[Waterdeep]].

;Settlements:
* [[Auckney]]
* [[Fireshear]]

:1. Both of these settlements are listed as part of the Cold Run, under the Frozenfar section on pages 56-57 of the [[Legacy of the Crystal Shard|LCS]] campaign book.
:2. Fireshear is listed as part of the Frozenfar on page 19 of the Cities and Civilization book of [[The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier|NGSF]].

Similarly it has been argued that these settlements not be included in the Frozenfar as they are south of the Spine of the World Mountains. I would argue that they are definitely listed as part of the Cold Run, and as such should be included in the Frozenfar. One compromise could be that they are included as part of the Cold Run, but the infobox and categorization doesn't include the Frozenfar.
|[[User:Johnnyriot999|Ruf]] ([[User talk:Johnnyriot999|talk]]) 16:09, February 12, 2020 (UTC)}}

{{Forum post|Thanks for posting this discussion.

As we discussed, the extent of the [[Frozenfar]] is subjective, and really dependent on whom is speaking about it. I would like to quote [[Volo]] for this:
{{quote
|The Frozenfar is a term used in [[Amn]] and the [[Inner Sea]] lands (and heard betimes in the [[Shining South]], too) to describe [[Mirabar]], and the mines and frozen mountains north of it. It traditionally includes [[Icewind Dale]] and the Howling Ice Plain beyond. I use the name as it is used elsewhere, to collectively describe the icy interior around the peaks known as the [[Spine of the World]], where [[dwarves]] and [[humans]] claw precious metal out of the rock.
|Volo
}}

If I understand, you don't believe the following are part of the Frozenfar, due to their distance from the other places (I haven't included the [[Ice Lakes]] or Mirabar here, but I'd like your comment on them):
* [[Gundarlun]]
* [[Purple Rocks]]
* [[Ruathym]]
* [[Tuern]]

Why do you believe Tuern that isn't part of the Frozenfar, but Fireshear is?

Your initial point is:
:1. While, [[The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier|NGSF]] 39-43 lists all of these islands under the section of [[Frozenfar]], it describes the Frozenfar as the places ''"so far north people could freeze."''

First, Tuern (even the whole extent of the island) is far more north than Fireshear. Secondly, the weather is often extremely harsh here (excluding the Flame Fault), probably more so than Fireshear. Looking at the Savage Frontier sourcebook: "The outer islands of the North feel winter's bite nearly eight months out the year. When they are not locked in winter's ice (often a mile or more wide by [[Alturiak]]), they are shrouded in dense, late-rising fog (if it rises at all). The storms that lash the islands are far harsher than those on the mainland, and most settlements are wisely built on the lee sides of the islands, away from the Aurilsbreath as the islanders call the near-constant bitter northwestern winter winds."

:3. Page 56 of [[Legacy of the Crystal Shard|LCS]] campaign guide lists the Frozenfar as the "lands (that) fall into four broad categories" — [[Icewind Dale]], the [[Cold Run]], the [[Spine of the World]] mountains and the Sea of Moving Ice.

It's hard to interpret the exact borders, as they are so broad. Maybe they didn't give Tuern a mention as it wasn't enough to be a category. Same as Mirabar, Ice Lakes etc. The more likely description is that this is just a view on what consists of the Frozenfar.

Overall, I'm not sure that we should refer to a location as in the Frozenfar, particularly in categorization or infoboxes. As Volo said, the term differs from person to person, and place to place.

|[[User:Possessed Priest|Possessed Priest]] ([[User talk:Possessed Priest|talk]]) 18:08, February 12, 2020 (UTC)}}
{{Forum post|
Looking back over some maps I think I was mistaken about [[Tuern]]. My issue was more its distance from the mainland, rather than how far north or south it is. Based on the excerpt from [[Legacy of the Crystal Shard]], I interpreted the Frozenfar as JUST the mainland, including the [[Sea of Moving Ice]] and [[Ice Peak]].

I will say it is so far north that it totally could be included as part of the [[Frozenfar]].

IMO [[Fireshear]] should be included as part of the Frozenfar as it is part of the [[Cold Run]], which according to every source I've read, is part of the Frozenfar.

That being said, if the consensus is that it's too far south to be part of the Frozenfar, I'm not against categorizing it as part of the Cold Run, but not part of the Frozenfar.

LASTLY I like keeping the Frozenfar categorization. It helps differentiate certain areas of the [[the North|northwest]] from the surrounding areas.
|[[User:Johnnyriot999|Ruf]] ([[User talk:Johnnyriot999|talk]]) 20:02, February 12, 2020 (UTC)}}

{{Forum post|
Here's how I propose the categorization moving forward:
{{User:Ruf/FrozenfarTable}}
<br/>
|[[User:Johnnyriot999|Ruf]] ([[User talk:Johnnyriot999|talk]]) 14:33, February 14, 2020 (UTC)}}

{{Forum post
|This looks like a very good categorization for most of the sites.

Firstly, Mirabar is strictly categorized as part of the Sword Coast North. The Sword Coast North is actually a huge area (think [[Faerûn]] as a whole), rather than just those actually on the coast (same with cities in real life). In the ''[[Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition]]'', page 176, Mirabar is an important site in the Sword Coast North, and is in the list between [[Luskan]] and [[Neverwinter]]. What is your justification for removing Mirabar as part of the Sword Coast region?

Secondly, I think we can keep ''both'' Auckney and Fireshear because they are both in the Cold Run. I was pitting Fireshear vs Tuern previously Tuern meets all the main criteria.

The Ice Lakes are adjacent to Mirabar and Fireshear, so they could probably be classed as part of it too. But I haven't made that article yet!

I would modify the table to the following:<br/>
{{User:Possessed Priest/Frozenfar}}

What are your thoughts?
|[[User:Possessed Priest|Possessed Priest]] ([[User talk:Possessed Priest|talk]]) 18:57, February 14, 2020 (UTC)
}}
{{Forum post
|That actually looks perfect to [[User:Possessed Priest|Priest]]! I'll give it a little while for our fellow editors to share their opinions then make the changes if no objections arise.
|[[User:Johnnyriot999|Ruf]] ([[User talk:Johnnyriot999|talk]]) 19:52, February 14, 2020 (UTC)}}
{{Forum post|
Hi [[:User:Possessed Priest|Priest]], I was going over these one last time and I realized that I don't really have a reason for Mirabar being part of the Spine of the World, other than it being part of the Frozenfar. I'm thinking maybe I should take off that one red check mark. Thoughts?
|[[User:Johnnyriot999|Ruf]] ([[User talk:Johnnyriot999|talk]]) 15:30, February 15, 2020 (UTC)}}

{{Forum post
|Hello [[User:Johnnyriot999|Ruf]],

Mirabar doesn't actually seem in between the mountain peaks, but I'm going to take a look. In ''[[The Savage Frontier (sourcebook)|The Savage Frontier]]'', it says, under the [[Spine of the World]]: 

{{quote
|If the mines of [[Mirabar]] are any indication, it also contains the richest mineral deposits in [[the North]], yet due to its monstrous inhabitants, only the smallest fraction of that wealth is exploited.
|Excerpt from ''The Savage Frontier''
}}

That implies that the ''mines'' of Mirabar are the Spine of the World (which seems correct from most maps), and this is also stated in ''[[Volo's Guide to the North]]''. How about the settlement itself (assuming the Mirabar Mines aren't classed as part of Mirabar)?

From what I found, Mirabar is said to be in the slopes of the Spine of the World Mountains. In ''[[Streams of Silver]]'', this is written:

{{quote
|[[Bruenor]] slipped his finger across the map, studying the physical features of the terrain. "Mirabar'd be more to me liking" he said at length, tapping the mark of the city tucked within the southern slopes of the Spine of the World.
|Excerpt from ''Streams of Silver''
}}

So, this source says that Mirabar is tucked away within the southern slopes ''of'' the Spine of the World. It doesn't say that it's part of the slopes south of the Spine of the World, it seems to be classed as within the Spine of the World's slopes itself. At the very least, it means that after the tall mountainous peaks, there are some snowy hills that are also seen as part of the great range. Hence, Mirabar (both the mines and the settlement) would be part of the Spine of the World.

What are your thoughts?
|[[User:Possessed Priest|Possessed Priest]] ([[User talk:Possessed Priest|talk]]) 20:50, February 15, 2020 (UTC)
}}
{{Forum post|
With that information, I think its safe to say that [[Mirabar]] is a part of the Spine of the World. It's kind of the same thing with the [[Frost Hills]]. They seem to be a continuation of the Spine mountains, like I imagine, the slopes that hold Mirabar.
|[[User:Johnnyriot999|Ruf]] ([[User talk:Johnnyriot999|talk]]) 12:54, February 16, 2020 (UTC)}}