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Hello all!

Recently when cleaning up a number of articles that needed a lot of TLC, I noticed the organization of certain regions of the North were either inaccurate, unclear, or both. Before myself or any other editors move forward about which articles and categories belong in which parent categories.

I began this with a rewrite of the Frozenfar article, but as the article states, that region is not well-defined across the various sourcebooks and editions. It is debated that some locations are a part of the Frozenfar in some editions, while they are not in others. So far the ones up for debate are:

Islands
1. While, NGSF 39-43 lists all of these islands under the section of Frozenfar, it describes the Frozenfar as the places "so far north people could freeze."
2. Page 92 of SKT lists Ice Peak as southeast of the Sea of Moving Ice."
3. Page 56 of LCS campaign guide lists the Frozenfar as the "lands (that) fall into four broad categories" — Icewind Dale, the Cold Run, the Spine of the World mountains and the Sea of Moving Ice.

I maintain that Icepeak should be included as a part of Frozenfar, while the other islands should be omitted due to them being hundreds of miles away from the mainland region of the four locations listed above. While Ice Peak isn't technically a part of the Sea of Moving Ice, it is included in the Frozenfar section of NGSF and LCS.

The other islands are often depicted in maps as being further south than the Spine of the World Mountains. Additionally, all of the remaining islands save for Gundarlun, experienced sub-arctic climate most of the year. This is inconsistent with in-text description about the Frozenfar.

While we shouldn't try to guess as to writer's intent and meaning, I feel like most of the islands were included in that section was a geography mistake, or an attempt to shoehorn in these locations. According to the map of NGSF, Gundarlun and Ruathym are located as far south in the Sea as Neverwinter and Waterdeep.

Settlements
1. Both of these settlements are listed as part of the Cold Run, under the Frozenfar section on pages 56-57 of the LCS campaign book.
2. Fireshear is listed as part of the Frozenfar on page 19 of the Cities and Civilization book of NGSF.

Similarly it has been argued that these settlements not be included in the Frozenfar as they are south of the Spine of the World Mountains. I would argue that they are definitely listed as part of the Cold Run, and as such should be included in the Frozenfar. One compromise could be that they are included as part of the Cold Run, but the infobox and categorization doesn't include the Frozenfar.

Ruf (talk) 16:09, February 12, 2020 (UTC)


Thanks for posting this discussion.

As we discussed, the extent of the Frozenfar is subjective, and really dependent on whom is speaking about it. I would like to quote Volo for this:

The Frozenfar is a term used in Amn and the Inner Sea lands (and heard betimes in the Shining South, too) to describe Mirabar, and the mines and frozen mountains north of it. It traditionally includes Icewind Dale and the Howling Ice Plain beyond. I use the name as it is used elsewhere, to collectively describe the icy interior around the peaks known as the Spine of the World, where dwarves and humans claw precious metal out of the rock.
  — Volo

If I understand, you don't believe the following are part of the Frozenfar, due to their distance from the other places (I haven't included the Ice Lakes or Mirabar here, but I'd like your comment on them):

Why do you believe Tuern that isn't part of the Frozenfar, but Fireshear is?

Your initial point is:

1. While, NGSF 39-43 lists all of these islands under the section of Frozenfar, it describes the Frozenfar as the places "so far north people could freeze."

First, Tuern (even the whole extent of the island) is far more north than Fireshear. Secondly, the weather is often extremely harsh here (excluding the Flame Fault), probably more so than Fireshear. Looking at the Savage Frontier sourcebook: "The outer islands of the North feel winter’'s bite nearly eight months out the year. When they are not locked in winter'’s ice (often a mile or more wide by Alturiak), they are shrouded in dense, late-rising fog (if it rises at all). The storms that lash the islands are far harsher than those on the mainland, and most settlements are wisely built on the lee sides of the islands, away from the Auril’sbreath as the islanders call the near-constant bitter northwestern winter winds."

3. Page 56 of LCS campaign guide lists the Frozenfar as the "lands (that) fall into four broad categories" — Icewind Dale, the Cold Run, the Spine of the World mountains and the Sea of Moving Ice.

It's hard to interpret the exact borders, as they are so broad. Maybe they didn't give Tuern a mention as it wasn't enough to be a category. Same as Mirabar, Ice Lakes etc. The more likely description is that this is just a view on what consists of the Frozenfar.

Overall, I'm not sure that we should refer to a location as in the Frozenfar, particularly in categorization or infoboxes. As Volo said, the term differs from person to person, and place to place.

Possessed Priest (talk) 18:08, February 12, 2020 (UTC)

Looking back over some maps I think I was mistaken about Tuern. My issue was more its distance from the mainland, rather than how far north or south it is. Based on the excerpt from Legacy of the Crystal Shard, I interpreted the Frozenfar as JUST the mainland, including the Sea of Moving Ice and Ice Peak.

I will say it is so far north that it totally could be included as part of the Frozenfar.

IMO Fireshear should be included as part of the Frozenfar as it is part of the Cold Run, which according to every source I've read, is part of the Frozenfar. Ironically I just found a map in RGLoD that shows Auckney being south of Fireshear, though EVERY other map shows the reverse. That's a tad frustrating! lol

That being said, if the consensus is that it's too far south to be part of the Frozenfar, I'm not against categorizing it as part of the Cold Run, but not part of the Frozenfar.

Additionally, I would say Mirabar is part of the Frozenfar as NGSF p39 SPECIFICALLY states that's where it begins. I know it's south of the Spine of the World, but it is a distinct, declarative passage. I'm not sure about Ice Lakes TBH, while I believe they are well south of the mountains I'm all ears to thoughts and opinions.

LASTLY I like keeping the Frozenfar categorization. It helps differentiate certain areas of the northwest from the surrounding areas.

Ruf (talk) 20:02, February 12, 2020 (UTC)


Here's how I propose the categorization moving forward: X = proposed removal
= proposed addition

Region Categories to which it belongs
Cold Run Frozenfar Sea of Moving Ice Trackless Sea Spine of the World Sword Coast North
Gundarlun X
Purple RocksX
Tuern
MirabarX
Spine of the WorldNA
FireshearX
Auckney
Ice PeakX
Ice Lakes


Ruf (talk) 14:33, February 14, 2020 (UTC)


This looks like a very good categorization for most of the sites.

Firstly, Mirabar is strictly categorized as part of the Sword Coast North. The Sword Coast North is actually a huge area (think Faerûn as a whole), rather than just those actually on the coast (same with cities in real life). In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition, page 176, Mirabar is an important site in the Sword Coast North, and is in the list between Luskan and Neverwinter. What is your justification for removing Mirabar as part of the Sword Coast region?

Secondly, I think we can keep both Auckney and Fireshear because they are both in the Cold Run. I was pitting Fireshear vs Tuern previously Tuern meets all the main criteria.

The Ice Lakes are adjacent to Mirabar and Fireshear, so they could probably be classed as part of it too. But I haven't made that article yet!

I would modify the table to the following:
X = proposed removal
= proposed addition

Region Categories to which it belongs
Cold Run Frozenfar Sea of Moving Ice Trackless Sea Spine of the World Sword Coast North
Gundarlun X
Purple RocksX
Tuern
Mirabar
Spine of the WorldNA
Fireshear
Auckney
Ice PeakX
Ice Lakes

What are your thoughts?

Possessed Priest (talk) 18:57, February 14, 2020 (UTC)
That actually looks perfect to Priest! I'll give it a little while for our fellow editors to share their opinions then make the changes if no objections arise.
Ruf (talk) 19:52, February 14, 2020 (UTC)

Hi Priest, I was going over these one last time and I realized that I don't really have a reason for Mirabar being part of the Spine of the World, other than it being part of the Frozenfar. I'm thinking maybe I should take off that one red check mark. Thoughts?

Ruf (talk) 15:30, February 15, 2020 (UTC)


Hello Ruf,

Mirabar doesn't actually seem in between the mountain peaks, but I'm going to take a look. In The Savage Frontier, it says, under the Spine of the World:

If the mines of Mirabar are any indication, it also contains the richest mineral deposits in the North, yet due to its monstrous inhabitants, only the smallest fraction of that wealth is exploited.
  — Excerpt from The Savage Frontier

That implies that the mines of Mirabar are the Spine of the World (which seems correct from most maps), and this is also stated in Volo's Guide to the North. How about the settlement itself (assuming the Mirabar Mines aren't classed as part of Mirabar)?

From what I found, Mirabar is said to be in the slopes of the Spine of the World Mountains. In Streams of Silver, this is written:

Bruenor slipped his finger across the map, studying the physical features of the terrain. "Mirabar'd be more to me liking" he said at length, tapping the mark of the city tucked within the southern slopes of the Spine of the World.
  — Excerpt from Streams of Silver

So, this source says that Mirabar is tucked away within the southern slopes of the Spine of the World. It doesn't say that it's part of the slopes south of the Spine of the World, it seems to be classed as within the Spine of the World's slopes itself. At the very least, it means that after the tall mountainous peaks, there are some snowy hills that are also seen as part of the great range. Hence, Mirabar (both the mines and the settlement) would be part of the Spine of the World.

What are your thoughts?

Possessed Priest (talk) 20:50, February 15, 2020 (UTC)

With that information, I think its safe to say that Mirabar is a part of the Spine of the World. It's kind of the same thing with the Frost Hills. They seem to be a continuation of the Spine mountains, like I imagine, the slopes that hold Mirabar.

Ruf (talk) 12:54, February 16, 2020 (UTC)
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