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{{Forum post|@BCM: Ah, I completely misunderstood what you said earlier about things being in more than one category. I'm all in favor of giving the Hordelands their own continent-level category. It's the smaller parts of the Hordelands that can be in Faerûn or Kara-Tur. So Artemaz will get what he originally proposed :) You did not put the Quoya Desert in Kara-Tur. Is that because you disagree with point #2 above? We need to decide if Faerûn and Kara-Tur touch each other and the Hordelands just overlay the two continents, or if the Hordelands actually separate the two.|—[[User:Moviesign|Moviesign]] ([[User talk:Moviesign|talk]]) 14:19, January 25, 2016 (UTC)}} |
{{Forum post|@BCM: Ah, I completely misunderstood what you said earlier about things being in more than one category. I'm all in favor of giving the Hordelands their own continent-level category. It's the smaller parts of the Hordelands that can be in Faerûn or Kara-Tur. So Artemaz will get what he originally proposed :) You did not put the Quoya Desert in Kara-Tur. Is that because you disagree with point #2 above? We need to decide if Faerûn and Kara-Tur touch each other and the Hordelands just overlay the two continents, or if the Hordelands actually separate the two.|—[[User:Moviesign|Moviesign]] ([[User talk:Moviesign|talk]]) 14:19, January 25, 2016 (UTC)}} |
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+ | {{Forum post|I have not read every single comment, but I just wanted to point out that there are corresponding real-world regions with similar issues. Loosely, Faerûn is Europe and some of Africa, Kara-Tur is southeastern Asia, Zakhara is Africa and the Middle East, Maztica is the Americas. The Hordelands then correspond to much of Russia and Central Asia (USSR at time of Forgotten Realm's creation), including Mongolia; Rashemen and Thay are culturally similar to eastern Europe and far-western Russia. In the real world, Russia straddles two continents and at times is considered in both or in one or the other (the concept of a continental separation between Europe and Asia being completely artificial). Also, if we're voting, I vote that the Hordelands not be considered part of Faerûn (and therefore get its own category on Toril), because the Sunrise Mountains serve as a convenient geographical separator, similar to the Caucasus Mountains separating Europe and Asia. And I think the Dragonwall makes a good eastern divider for Kara-Tur, right?|[[User:Coswig|Coswig]] ([[User talk:Coswig|talk]]) 20:51, January 26, 2016 (UTC)}} |
Revision as of 20:51, 26 January 2016
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Personally I would like to treat the Hordelands as a separate continent as far as categorizing goes (Faerun, Zakhara, Hordelands, Kara-Tur, etc), but I realize some overlap is involved in the "borders" between Faerun and the Hordelands.
Another suggestion would be to cease East and Northeast Faerun categorization along a solid boundary like the Jumpa River.
Thoughts?
The Hordelands seems physically large enough to be its own category, especially considering how different the cultures present in the Hordelands are from the rest of Faerun. Tricky subject!
But what to call it? The campaign setting book calls it all the Endless Waste, which seems fine to me, though the FRCS 3e changes it to Hordelands, of which the Endless Wastes are only a part. I imagine "Hordelands" are merely those areas dominated by the Tuigan, but it will have to be it.
That whole area is all rather hazy, with portions heavily in Faerûn and others in Kara-Tur (as one would expect). So it would be fair to categorise places in both, with Semphar in East Faerûn and in the Hordelands. Or West Hordelands maybe? Would it even need compass-point division?
- the Endless Wastes- northwest Hordelands near Rashemen and Thay
- the Great Amber Steppes- central Hordelands between the Lake of Mists and Ejen Horo
- Yaimmunahar - central Hordelands between the Lake of Mists and Quoya Desert
- the Plain of Horses- northeast Hordelands near Ama Basin
These are all mostly large grassland areas that are part of the greater "Hordelands", so perhaps just calling the entire region the Hordelands is the way to go.
Given how hazy the borders are for the Hordelands all ready, I would think that adding compass-point categories within the Hordelands would be even more confusing.
I would have to agree that it should be its own area. If you look at the map provided in the Hordelands box set, and all the places the "encyclopedia of the wastes" in the Hordelands books, its a massive area. http://i.imgur.com/0Lt3EIk.jpg
Its not just northeast Faerun, its east Faerun, and southeast Faerun as well. It borders it all. And then the booklet even says the Ni-Ko Oasis is generally considered the divide between Faerun and Kara-Tur, and tons of places like Ra-Khati and Khazari on very clearly on the Kar-Tur side of the divide.
You might as well slap "northwest Kara-Tur" on everything also given how much it borders the dragonwall.
while its true Darkwynters that it says that, the Kara-Tur campaign book lists the plain of horses, which is part of the hordelands, as being part of Kara-Tur. Similarly, its said in the Horde campaign book that the Ni-Ko oasis is whats considered the divide between faerun and Kara-Tur.
If we want to get really technical, everyfrom in the Hordelands from the Ni-Ko Oasis eastward should have their Faerun tags removed, and instead get Kara-Tur tags based on both what The Horde and Kara-Tur campaigns list as being the divide. Basically, this would be the dividing point http://i.imgur.com/mw86utq.jpg
Places like Ra-Khati, and Khazari, are not part of faerun, location wise, or culturally.
X = proposed removal
✓ = proposed addition
Country or Region |
Categories to which it belongs | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Northeast Faerûn |
East Faerûn |
Southeast Faerûn |
Far East Faerûn |
Hordelands | Kara-Tur | |
Narfell | ✓ | |||||
Rashemen | ✓ | |||||
Thesk | ✓ | |||||
Endless Waste | ✓ | ✓ | ||||
Yal Tengri | ✓ | ✓ | ✓ | ✓ | ||
Ama Basin | ✓ | ✓ | ||||
Horse Plains | ✓ | ✓ | ||||
Quoya Desert | ✓ | ✓ | ||||
Khazari | X | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Ra-Khati | X | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Thay | ✓ | |||||
Mulhorand | ✓ | |||||
Murghôm | ✓ | |||||
Semphar | ✓ | ✓ | ||||
Gbor Nor | ✓ | ✓ | ||||
Durpar | ✓ | |||||
Raurin | ✓ | |||||
Ulgarth | X | ✓ |
I like the Far East Faerûn idea! Follows all editions :)
@Moviesign
Parts of the western Ama Basin are considered to be in The Hordelands. and Ra-Khati and Khazari aren't really part of Faerun at all. Given the Ni-Ki Oasis continent split, both would be part of Kara-Tur. Both nations also follow the religion of the nations of Kara-Tur, which only furthers the idea.
Ulgarth would also, IMO, be part of Kara-Tur. If we look where the Faerun and LKara-Tur continents meet, its on the KLara-Tur side of the Golden Water, which just leads out to the ocean between Faerun and Zakhara
I disagree about Ulgarth... page 17 of the Player's Guide to Faerûn states it is under the Golden Water region, which could fit under Far East Faerûn... there is a nice map on page 7 of this 3.5 edition sourcebook... Page 79 on Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition has the Golden Water as being in southeast Faerûn... Do we need Far East", if we have an Utter East already?
The 4th edition sourcebook Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide page 87 has the Quoya Desert under the Hordelands... both of these are under locations in Faerûn... Now, technically, the desert could be under Far East or Utter East.
Check out the 3.5 edition Shining South page 109... it has a pretty good description of the Utter East :)
First, if it appears on maps of Faerûn, I'd put in Faerûn. And be aware that material for one setting will tend to briefly covering neighbouring lands.
Ulgarth: I did research on this once. It lies just beyond Durpar, but has a very Faerûnian culture. It was covered in both Shining South sourcebooks. So, it's certainly SE Faerûn. Being the birthplace of the Padhra, it's also very important to the Hordelands, though the setting book barely mentions it. I'm not inclined to put it in the Hordelands, but wouldn't say no either. It has nothing to do with Kara-Tur, so it's not a part of that.
Utter East: I researched this for the Utter East Redux project on the WotC forums years ago. An obscure place, it lies south of Ulgarth, on the west side of the spit of land connecting to Zakhara. (It's better described as utter south.) It has a local, Indian-like culture, but has strong connections to Faerûn (it was settled by folk from the Moonshaes as well). Although it's something of a nexus for all three continents, with elements of each appearing, it's only ever been mentioned in Faerûn-focused sources, so by extension I would call it SE Faerûn as well. It's definitely not in Zakhara, Kara-Tur, or the Hordelands.
Raurin: Covered in Faerûn and Horde material, it easily lies in both.
Durpar: Southeast Faerûn.
Murghôm, Semphar, & Gbor Nor: Tend to be mapped and covered in both, so East Faerûn and Hordelands.
Mulhorand, Plains of Purple Dust: East Faerûn
Thay: No question, East Faerûn.
I'll examine the others later.
Wait! Aha! The Forgotten Realms Atlas discusses what's in the Western Realms, the Hordelands, and the Eastern Realms, and it's in-universe and official too. It says the Hordelands are a wedge 2000 miles across in the north, a few hundred in the south. It's bordered by the intermittent mountain chains from Raurin to Sossal, the Jumpa River Gorge and the Dragonwall, and from Raurin to the Ama River basin.
In the Hordelands, it places Semphar (also a part of the Western Realms), Gbor Nor, possibly Raurin, the Godswatch Mountains/Teyla Shan, and the Shalhoond. It also places the "true" Hordelands, the Endless Wastes, and the Horse Plains (all names for the same place) there. It also includes the Chigidi and Chigiogi Mountains, the Kora Shan mountains, and the Quoya Desert.
Country or Region |
Categories to which it belongs | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Northeast Faerûn |
East Faerûn |
Southeast Faerûn |
Hordelands | Kara-Tur | |
Narfell | ✓ | ||||
Rashemen | ✓ | ||||
Thesk | ✓ | ||||
Endless Waste | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Yal Tengri | ✓ | ✓ | ✓ | ||
Ama Basin | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Horse Plains | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Quoya Desert | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Khazari | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Ra-Khati | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Thay | ✓ | ||||
Mulhorand | ✓ | ||||
Purple Dust | ✓ | ||||
Murghôm | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Semphar | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Gbor Nor | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Raurin | ✓ | ✓ | |||
Durpar | ✓ | ||||
Ulgarth | ✓ | ||||
Utter East | ✓ |
As far as I am aware, Ulgarth is part of the five kingdoms, a group of 5 nations that lie on a strip of land that is physically located on the continent of Kara-Tur, but is considered a separate region because its blocked from the rest of Kara-Tur by the mountains.
If we were going by what landmass its located on, they would be part of Kara-Tur imo.
@BadCatMan: I presume you meant to say East when you said Raurin is in the West. I will move its checkmark.
@Sajuukkhar: Ulgarth is definitely not one of the five kingdoms. They are Parsanic, Doegan, Edenvale, Langdarma, and Konigheim.
@All: I would like to nail down some points of agreement. If you disagree with any of the following, please cite or quote sources to back up your argument.
- We agree that "Far East" Faerûn is not canon and we are not going to use it. If you feel strongly that we need another compass point, please explain why you think it would be advantageous.
- The Ni-Ko Oasis is roughly the dividing line between Faerûn and Kara-Tur, down to near Solon. (Below that is Ulgarth and the Golden Water region which is a different point.)
- The Hordelands are the roughly triangular region between Sossal, Raurin, and the Ama Basin. Areas should be categorized as part of the Hordelands if they are important parts of the setting as discussed in the sourcebooks. They may also be in other geographical categories.
- Ulgarth and the Five Kingdoms of the Utter East are culturally closer to Faerûn than anything else, and are discussed in sourcebooks relating to Faerûn, so even though they could be placed on the continent of Kara-Tur, they are part of Faerûn.
- We generally agree on, or can live with, the categorizations displayed in the "Not Far East" table above.
Great ideas, guys! So would we categorize Raurin as being a part of the Hordelands and east Faerûn... Will the Hordelands be linked to Locations in Faerûn or Locations in East Faerûn?
What makes up the Five Kingdoms was something of a mystery, as I recall, as the Free Cities of Parsanic aren't technically a kingdom. But Ulgarth is specifically not a part of the Five Kingdoms in the Realms of Mystery story "Darkly, Through a Glass of Ale", they're fractious neighbors. Regardless, it's not relevant. Ulgarth and the Utter East both lie on the wrong side of the Yehimals, so they're most definitely not a part of Kara-Tur, nor can they be in the Hordelands by any stretch.
Raurin: I believe this should go in Southeast Faerûn and Hordelands categories.
I don't believe the Hordelands page or category should go in Southeast/East/Northeast Faerûn or in Kara-Tur categories, because locations in the Hordelands don't necessarily go in any of those larger categories. Instead, it should be treated as a continent-level category, on par with Faerûn and Kara-Tur, while individual locales in the Hordelands might have dual categorisation, as a appropriate. The Atlas specifically excludes the Hordelands from the Western Realms/Faerûn or Eastern Realms/Kara-Tur definitions.
For example, my suggested categories, "Locations in...":
- Hordelands: Toril
- Raurin: Southeast Faerûn, Faerûn, Hordelands, Toril
- Semphar: East Faerûn, Faerûn, Hordelands, Toril
- Quoya Desert: Hordelands, Toril
- Dragonwall: Shou Lung, Kara-Tur, Toril
Oh my, this snowball just keeps rolling down the mountain...