Forum:Northeast Faerun

Forums: Helping Hand > Northeast Faerun

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Would it be possible to remove the "Locations in Northeast Faerun" category from the pages dealing with the Hordelands? From looking at the map shown on Northeast Faerûn much of the Hordelands pages tagged with "Locations in Northeast Faerun" are nowhere close to NE Faerun.

Personally I would like to treat the Hordelands as a separate continent as far as categorizing goes (Faerun, Zakhara, Hordelands, Kara-Tur, etc), but I realize some overlap is involved in the "borders" between Faerun and the Hordelands.

Another suggestion would be to cease East and Northeast Faerun categorization along a solid boundary like the Jumpa River.

Thoughts?

Artemaz (talk) 00:32, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

I was only following the categories on the Hordelands page... The Horde sourcebook is Forgotten Realms... the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition page 145 places the Hordelands in Faerûn... though page 6 of the Horde does state it is a border between Faerûn and Kara-Tur... I would think it should be its own land as you state above or be part of both. Hmmm, after reading the 3e material... it feels like it should be at least set in Faerûn... hmmm

- Darkwynters (talk) 01:57, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

I've labeled most of the Hordelands pages that I've created as Northeast Faerun as well, so I'm not pointing fingers or anything. ;)

The Hordelands seems physically large enough to be its own category, especially considering how different the cultures present in the Hordelands are from the rest of Faerun. Tricky subject!

Artemaz (talk) 03:31, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

It would help if we had a nice map of the region to make it clear what part of Toril is called the Hordelands. I'll see if I can find one. I don't have a problem with giving it the same status as Kara-Tur, Zakhara, or Maztica, if everyone agrees that the region is distinct enough.

—Moviesign (talk) 13:57, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

I personally consider the Hordelands to be an integral part of Faerûn, they're just overlooked far too often. The Hordelands history is tied up closely with ancient Imaskar and Raumathar, which pretty much shaped the entirety of the eastern Realms. It's one of those places that get pushed to the side like the Great Glacier, Ulgarth, Murghôm & Semphar (which only became part of the Hordelands after the Tuigan Invasion). The Hordelands may be big but they're still a part of Faerûn. In the past, the general policy on the wiki has been to add MORE categories, not remove existing ones (a move I was originally against but warmed to despite the added bureaucracy) so I think removing Northeast Faerûn from Hordelands pages wouldn't be the right move.

-hash^talk 15:05, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

I don't mind seeing another continent-level categorisation for this area. Each of the campaign settings on Toril is set in a distinct continent: Forgotten Realms on Faerûn, Oriental Adventures/The Eastern Realms on Kara-Tur, Maztica on Maztica, Al-Qadim on Zakhara. Each of these is useful for users of that specific setting. Never mind the logo, The Horde is distinctly meant to be a new campaign setting on that level, saying as much on the cover and in the introduction: Horde/Barbarian Campaign Setting. It had a few sourcebooks and adventure modules. It follows that we set aside an equivalent categorisation for it. (Note that that doesn't necessarily define the area as a distinct continent.)

But what to call it? The campaign setting book calls it all the Endless Waste, which seems fine to me, though the FRCS 3e changes it to Hordelands, of which the Endless Wastes are only a part. I imagine "Hordelands" are merely those areas dominated by the Tuigan, but it will have to be it.

That whole area is all rather hazy, with portions heavily in Faerûn and others in Kara-Tur (as one would expect). So it would be fair to categorise places in both, with Semphar in East Faerûn and in the Hordelands. Or West Hordelands maybe? Would it even need compass-point division?

— BadCatMan (talk) 13:35, January 22, 2016 (UTC)

Naming the new "Hordelands" gets tricky because there are large stretches named:

• the Endless Wastes- northwest Hordelands near Rashemen and Thay
• the Great Amber Steppes- central Hordelands between the Lake of Mists and Ejen Horo
• Yaimmunahar - central Hordelands between the Lake of Mists and Quoya Desert
• the Plain of Horses- northeast Hordelands near Ama Basin

These are all mostly large grassland areas that are part of the greater "Hordelands", so perhaps just calling the entire region the Hordelands is the way to go.

Given how hazy the borders are for the Hordelands all ready, I would think that adding compass-point categories within the Hordelands would be even more confusing.

Artemaz (talk) 14:20, January 22, 2016 (UTC)

And leave Category:Locations in the Hordelands as a subcategory of Category:Locations in Northeast Faerûn? Should it be a subcat of something else too?

—Moviesign (talk) 14:39, January 22, 2016 (UTC)

If the Hordelands is going to be its own region, the maybe Category:Locations in the Hordelands should not be a subcat of Category:Locations in Northeast Faerûn. Locations that border both Northeast or East Faerun (like Murghôm) could still use both of those categories. The same could apply in the east for locations that are part of both the Hordelands and Kara-Tur.

Artemaz (talk) 15:14, January 22, 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we've reached a consensus yet. BCM and I are ok with it being its own region and DW and Hash feel it should be part of Faerûn. At least that's how I read it.

—Moviesign (talk) 15:28, January 22, 2016 (UTC)

I would have to agree that it should be its own area. If you look at the map provided in the Hordelands box set, and all the places the "encyclopedia of the wastes" in the Hordelands books, its a massive area. http://i.imgur.com/0Lt3EIk.jpg

Its not just northeast Faerun, its east Faerun, and southeast Faerun as well. It borders it all. And then the booklet even says the Ni-Ko Oasis is generally considered the divide between Faerun and Kara-Tur, and tons of places like Ra-Khati and Khazari on very clearly on the Kar-Tur side of the divide.

You might as well slap "northwest Kara-Tur" on everything also given how much it borders the dragonwall.

Sajuukkhar9000 (talk) 17:10, January 22, 2016 (UTC)

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide on page 12... states the Hordelands, formally known as the Endless Wastes, is part of Faerûn... it is in a section with the Dalelands and Sembia under a section called "Lands to the East" and the next big sections is Kara-Tur and Zakhara... I do feel it is part of Faerûn, located in the northeast and eastern part of the continent.

- Darkwynters (talk) 00:02, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

I do not know much about the Hordelands, so I don't think my vote should have much weight, but I agree with hash and DW that it's part of the continent of Faerûn.

~ Lhynard (talk) 03:44, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

Okay, how about we call it Far East Faerûn and then Category:Locations in Far East Faerûn becomes the parent category of Category:Locations in the Hordelands? (instead of Northeast Faerûn like it is now).

LOL, I just saw that Hash created this category 8 years ago!

—Moviesign (talk) 05:42, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

while its true Darkwynters that it says that, the Kara-Tur campaign book lists the plain of horses, which is part of the hordelands, as being part of Kara-Tur. Similarly, its said in the Horde campaign book that the Ni-Ko oasis is whats considered the divide between faerun and Kara-Tur.

If we want to get really technical, everyfrom in the Hordelands from the Ni-Ko Oasis eastward should have their Faerun tags removed, and instead get Kara-Tur tags based on both what The Horde and Kara-Tur campaigns list as being the divide. Basically, this would be the dividing point http://i.imgur.com/mw86utq.jpg

Places like Ra-Khati, and Khazari, are not part of faerun, location wise, or culturally.

Sajuukkhar9000 (talk) 11:49, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

Man, I'd forgotten that I'd already created the Far East Faerûn category for precisely this issue.

-hash^talk 12:09, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

So if we go the "Far East" route, every Hordelands page currently tagged as either "Northeast Faerun" or "East Faerun" would instead get tagged as "Far East Faerun"?

Artemaz (talk) 13:44, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

I would say it's not that simple. I have created a table of most of the major regions in and around the disputed area so we can discuss details and really finalize this. See below my draft proposal for what places go in what categories. If I missed anything important, you can add to it here. The table includes the "Far East" category. If we decide against using it, then we just need to decide the fate of Ulgarth because I didn't know where else to put it. Murghôm is geographically Far East but culturally closer to Mulhorand (according to our article that says they worship the same pantheon). So, please discuss where you think the check marks should be placed and remember that geographical locations are fairly fixed, but political locations vary over time, and it is difficult to completely separate them.

X = proposed removal
✓ = proposed addition

Country or Region	Categories to which it belongs
	Northeast Faerûn	East Faerûn	Southeast Faerûn	Far East Faerûn	Hordelands	Kara-Tur
Narfell	✓
Rashemen	✓
Thesk	✓
Endless Waste	✓				✓
Yal Tengri	✓			✓	✓	✓
Ama Basin					✓	✓
Horse Plains					✓	✓
Quoya Desert					✓	✓
Khazari				X	✓	✓
Ra-Khati				X	✓	✓
Thay		✓
Mulhorand		✓
Murghôm		✓
Semphar				✓	✓
Gbor Nor				✓	✓
Durpar			✓
Raurin			✓
Ulgarth				X		✓

—Moviesign (talk) 17:29, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

I like the Far East Faerûn idea! Follows all editions :)

- Darkwynters (talk) 17:36, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

@Moviesign

Parts of the western Ama Basin are considered to be in The Hordelands. and Ra-Khati and Khazari aren't really part of Faerun at all. Given the Ni-Ki Oasis continent split, both would be part of Kara-Tur. Both nations also follow the religion of the nations of Kara-Tur, which only furthers the idea.

Ulgarth would also, IMO, be part of Kara-Tur. If we look where the Faerun and LKara-Tur continents meet, its on the KLara-Tur side of the Golden Water, which just leads out to the ocean between Faerun and Zakhara

Sajuukkhar9000 (talk) 18:07, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

I have updated the table to reflect the suggestions by Sajuukkhar. Anyone else have input? I will give it a few days to a week (depending on how lively the discussion is) so folks have a chance to express their opinions. What else should go in Far East Faerûn?

—Moviesign (talk) 19:55, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

I disagree about Ulgarth... page 17 of the Player's Guide to Faerûn states it is under the Golden Water region, which could fit under Far East Faerûn... there is a nice map on page 7 of this 3.5 edition sourcebook... Page 79 on Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition has the Golden Water as being in southeast Faerûn... Do we need Far East", if we have an Utter East already?

- Darkwynters (talk) 21:25, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

The 4th edition sourcebook Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide page 87 has the Quoya Desert under the Hordelands... both of these are under locations in Faerûn... Now, technically, the desert could be under Far East or Utter East.

- Darkwynters (talk) 21:54, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

Since there are some discrepancies in the sourcebooks between editions, how about using the Yehimals as the dividing point? Zakhara, Faerun, and Kara-Tur all converge at the Yehimals ... so we could put the Yehimals in the Hordelands or Far East Faerun, then everything south of the Yehimals is Zakhara, everything east is Kara-Tur, and everything west is Faerun, while the North/northwest is the Hordelands.

Artemaz (talk) 22:10, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to know exactly what the Utter East is. The Grand History of the Realms speaks of it as being a conglomeration of 5 kingdoms that is distinct from Kara-tur. Anyone have more accurate info? I'll look around when I get the chance.

—Moviesign (talk) 23:56, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

Check out the 3.5 edition Shining South page 109... it has a pretty good description of the Utter East :)

- Darkwynters (talk) 00:16, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

Shining South says it lies east of Ulgarth. I found it on the 2nd edition map at map coordinates O-28 (almost the lower right corner) which is south of Ulgarth, but I think they just ran out of map. At any rate, I don't think we can use "Utter East" as a substitute. At best it sounds like a region of Kara-Tur if anything.

—Moviesign (talk) 00:35, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

Page 179 of the 3.5 ed. of Shining South says "Though geographical proximity might lead some to consider Ulgarth part of the Golden Water region, the marked differences between this nation and the others on the bay are significant enough to merit its classification as a separate realm. In many ways, Ulgarth is an isolated nation..." So I take that to mean it's not part of Southeast Faerûn nor it is part of Kara-Tur. I vote for placing it in Far East Faerûn.

I have noticed that various sources say that Ulgarth is bordered on the east by the vast plains of the Utter East, but every map I've seen shows mountains on its eastern border. I think some old source has been copied a few times and never vetted for accuracy with the more recent additions of Zakhara and Kara-Tur.

—Moviesign (talk) 01:57, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

"Far East"? Is that a canon name somewhere? I'd rather keep to canon terminology where possible.

First, if it appears on maps of Faerûn, I'd put in Faerûn. And be aware that material for one setting will tend to briefly covering neighbouring lands.

Ulgarth: I did research on this once. It lies just beyond Durpar, but has a very Faerûnian culture. It was covered in both Shining South sourcebooks. So, it's certainly SE Faerûn. Being the birthplace of the Padhra, it's also very important to the Hordelands, though the setting book barely mentions it. I'm not inclined to put it in the Hordelands, but wouldn't say no either. It has nothing to do with Kara-Tur, so it's not a part of that.

Utter East: I researched this for the Utter East Redux project on the WotC forums years ago. An obscure place, it lies south of Ulgarth, on the west side of the spit of land connecting to Zakhara. (It's better described as utter south.) It has a local, Indian-like culture, but has strong connections to Faerûn (it was settled by folk from the Moonshaes as well). Although it's something of a nexus for all three continents, with elements of each appearing, it's only ever been mentioned in Faerûn-focused sources, so by extension I would call it SE Faerûn as well. It's definitely not in Zakhara, Kara-Tur, or the Hordelands.

Raurin: Covered in Faerûn and Horde material, it easily lies in both.

Durpar: Southeast Faerûn.

Murghôm, Semphar, & Gbor Nor: Tend to be mapped and covered in both, so East Faerûn and Hordelands.

Mulhorand, Plains of Purple Dust: East Faerûn

Thay: No question, East Faerûn.

I'll examine the others later.

Wait! Aha! The Forgotten Realms Atlas discusses what's in the Western Realms, the Hordelands, and the Eastern Realms, and it's in-universe and official too. It says the Hordelands are a wedge 2000 miles across in the north, a few hundred in the south. It's bordered by the intermittent mountain chains from Raurin to Sossal, the Jumpa River Gorge and the Dragonwall, and from Raurin to the Ama River basin.

In the Hordelands, it places Semphar (also a part of the Western Realms), Gbor Nor, possibly Raurin, the Godswatch Mountains/Teyla Shan, and the Shalhoond. It also places the "true" Hordelands, the Endless Wastes, and the Horse Plains (all names for the same place) there. It also includes the Chigidi and Chigiogi Mountains, the Kora Shan mountains, and the Quoya Desert.

— BadCatMan (talk) 02:08, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

Okay, here is my interpretation of what BadCatMan just said, plus the previous input from Sajuukkhar. This is the "Not Far East" proposal. You can add or modify it here.

Country or Region	Categories to which it belongs
	Northeast Faerûn	East Faerûn	Southeast Faerûn	Hordelands	Kara-Tur
Narfell	✓
Rashemen	✓
Thesk	✓
Endless Waste	✓			✓
Yal Tengri	✓			✓	✓
Ama Basin				✓	✓
Horse Plains				✓	✓
Quoya Desert				✓	✓
Khazari				✓	✓
Ra-Khati				✓	✓
Thay		✓
Mulhorand		✓
Purple Dust		✓
Murghôm		✓		✓
Semphar		✓		✓
Gbor Nor		✓		✓
Raurin			✓	✓
Durpar			✓
Ulgarth			✓
Utter East			✓

—Moviesign (talk) 03:13, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

Going on, the Atlas places Semphar and the Endless Wastes as border areas for the Western Realms (what we call Faerûn), more part of the Hordelands. So, a bit of both. The Raurin is in the West. The Yal Tengri is unknown, presumably being a sea it is not counted (though it borders Faerûn, Hordelands, and Kara-Tur). The Horse Plains/Plain of Horses are in the Hordelands (being a Kara-Turan name for the Endless Wastes or "true" Hordelands). The Ama Basin is in the Eastern Realms (aka Kara-Tur). Khazari, Ra-Khati, and the Katakoro Plateau are unclear, but are mentioned as border areas for the Eastern Realms. The Atlas definition would place them outside the Hordelands, but they are so big in the setting, I feel they ought to be a part of it. Being border areas, this is feasible.

— BadCatMan (talk) 06:46, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, Ulgarth is part of the five kingdoms, a group of 5 nations that lie on a strip of land that is physically located on the continent of Kara-Tur, but is considered a separate region because its blocked from the rest of Kara-Tur by the mountains.

If we were going by what landmass its located on, they would be part of Kara-Tur imo.

Sajuukkhar9000 (talk) 12:12, January 24, 2016 (UTC)