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Moving this discussion from my talk page (past chatter can be seen here).

BadCat has done a wonderful job on Ilmater and I just added the edition-specific refs parameters to the {{Deity}} template to get them out of the class tables. My main question is: Would it be useful, pretty, or wise, to move all edition-specific info down into the edition subsections?

I would also like to suggest that sphere be renamed to regions and that spheres be added to list the 2nd edition priest spell spheres (this would go in the 2nd edition section). I argue that the "Sphere" column on pages 81–82 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is just a one-word summary of the Portfolio. Likewise, I think formerdominion could be replaced with edition-specific dominion parameters, since the rearrangement of the {{Deity list}}s and cosmologies roughly correspond to editions.

As far as I can tell, what the template calls Channel divinity prayers are actually called "Heroic Tier Feats" or perhaps "Feat Powers". Can anyone shed some light on the proper name for these? Where did "prayer" come from? (I'm just going to have to break down and buy a 4th ed. PHB.) And does the current {{Prayer/channel divinity}} template apply, or should I modify it or make a new one? (This is a separate discussion topic, but I'm starting to think {{Spell}} should be a variant of a Power template that would encompass Disciplines, Evocations, Exploits, Hexes, Powers, Prayers, and Spells.)

Moviesign (talk) 04:12, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I was going to tackle the infoboxes when I had some more of the main articles done (read: when I could be bothered tinkering with them).

What edition-specific material god-related is there? Spheres (spells) for 2e; Domains (3e) and Favored Weapons for 3e; and Channel Divinity and Domains (4e) for 4e. Plus the planar location(s) for every edition. If you wanted to go all the way, edition-specific sections could also include portfolios/sphere and cleric alignments.

What do you mean by regions? Regions where they are worshiped? I was planning to discuss these within the article itself. I think it may be too much information for an infobox.

Sphere of influence and portfolio are redundant unless we divide them by edition.

Edition-specific dominion lines is good. I followed the format of homes and formerhomes from the Person template, but with the changing cosmologies it was just too complex. Deities change their plane with every edition. Some like Lolth are forever moving their crap around (she'll be living out of a camper van next).

Channel Divinity is a class feature of the Cleric and Paladin and maybe later divine class, giving powers like Turn Undead and things like some old divine spells. A Cleric or Paladin can take a [Divinity] feat (of the Heroic Tier) to gain a unique power that works off their Channel Divinity ability. This power is called, for example, "Channel Divinity: Ilmater's martyrdom". All Cleric and Paladin powers are called Prayers, and these include the Channel Divinity powers, and so Channel Divinity: Ilmater's martyrdom is also a Prayer. Mechanically, they function in much the same way as the other Prayers (and Spells, Exploits, etc.). So the existing templates should work.

— BadCatMan (talk) 07:00, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Do portfolios/sphere and cleric alignments really change significantly between editions? If so, then I would prefer them to be in edition-specific sections rather than use Formerly:, especially for the alignment grid. If not, then we could get by with leaving it in the main section of the infobox.

Yes, I meant geographic regions of Toril. I thought I saw a short list for each deity in a table somewhere in my 3rd/3.5 edition sources. We can eliminate this parameter if you think it is too much for the infobox.

I'd like to just replace Sphere of Influence with Portfolio in all editions. They seem basically synonymous to me.

I didn't see the word "prayer" in any of the Channel Divinity feats in the 4e FR player's guide, but if you say they are really prayers, I'll go along with that. (Besides, it's less work if I don't have to re-tool the template again).

Edit: Will the "Influences" subheading still be needed if we move stuff to edition-specific subsections? I don't think having multiple "Influences" sections in the edition-specific sections is useful, the box is huge already. Thoughts?
Moviesign (talk) 14:40, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Some gods do switch their portfolios around regularly — Bane and Cyric, for example — and these broadly coincide with editions. Plus, it seems 4e has a different terminology for handling this aspect, with the sphere of influence line, which heavily condenses the portfolios of old.

Looking at Faiths & Avatars and so on in 2e, the Clergy Alignments are rather broader than the Cleric alignments given in 3e. For example, in 2e Ilmater allows LG, NG, LN, and CG, while in 3e Ilmater allows LG, NG, and LN clerics. I don't know how much the 2e clergy alignments relate to the mechanics of the classes or whatnot, but it seemed like something else we could cover.

Deity alignments also change, with Ilmater LG in the past, and merely Good in 4e (thanks to the pared-back alignment system).

Yes, the FRCS 3e regions has favored deities by region on page 23. This affects where you can play a cleric from and still have a regional feat and get bonus equipment. The Player's Guide to Faerûn in 3.5 drops that requirement, making favored deities only suggestions. So it's not a true reflection of the deity's regional influence. Though the list says for Ilmater "Calimshan, Damara, Impiltur, Tethyr", I could add Uzurr in Lapaliiya, and maybe others, and there's no real end to it. Ultimately, Ilmater is worshipped across Faerûn.

It's contingent on each thing being a type of another thing, but yes, Channel Divinity: X has to be a prayer. And what else could it be? :)

— BadCatMan (talk) 15:06, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it could be a "power" or a "feat" :P but "prayer" fits, I just wanted to use the correct terminology, if it didn't cause confusion or template headaches.

I will make a new Deity template in my sandbox and use it on an example page and see what folks think. So far, I have the following changes to make:

  • Either change "sphere" to "regions" or leave off regions entirely.
  • Add "spheres" to 2e section
  • Add "domains" to 3e and 4e section
  • Add "favored weapon" to 3e section
  • Add "realm/dominion" to all editions
  • Add "portfolio" to all editions and absorb "spheres of influence"
  • Add "worshipper alignments" to all editions
  • Add "deity alignment" to all editions
  • Add "power level" to all editions
  • Add "channel divinity prayer" to 4e (if there is only one of these, if there are more then this should probably not go in the infobox)
  • Edit: Change "minions" to "servedby" and add a "serves" parameter to describe divine hierarchy. This will have to be edition-specific.
  • Edit again: Document "race" and "gender" to apply to the original mortal form. Group with "apotheosis".
  • Edit the third: Add "Holy Day(s)" to all editions

Anything else?

Moviesign (talk) 00:40, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Sphere: Well, we're folding this into Portfolio, rather than changing to Regions.

Regions: I'd say no to this, but would accept it if others want it.

When you say "to all editions" do you mean a non-edition section, or to have this line in each edition section? I'd prefer the latter.

I believe there is only one channel divinity prayer per deity, at least in the FRCG.

— BadCatMan (talk) 12:02, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I think BadCat had the "races" line since many of the gods were mortals, such as Cyric, or have risen in status, like Fzoul Chembryl or Obould.

-Darkwynters (talk) 17:51, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was part of my idea for treating deities as characters (which they essentially are in the Realms), with race, gender, classes and so on. Mainly, that was for mortals ascended to deities (Bane was probably a human man, Cyric was a human man, Mystra a human woman) or promoted to exarchs (Fzoul was a human man). It could also be used for standard appearances of the avatars of those who were always gods: Deneir is usually a male human (though I did see a female Deneir once), while Gond is human or gnome. But this second case is unclear and speculative, so it could be left out.
— BadCatMan (talk) 08:51, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Can I assume there were no real changes in any deity's avatar between 3e and 35? I'd like to eliminate the 35 parameters if possible.

I am going to try to leave all the old parameters in place for backward compatibility. BadCat, how many deity pages got your new parameters? If I move them to a different section or something, how hard will it be to retrofit those pages? Are we talking one or two? a dozen? a hundred? Just curious.

Moviesign (talk) 01:35, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

AFAIK, deities (and only the famous ones) were only statted in the 3e source Faiths and Pantheons, so yes, just 3e will do. However, they do have lesser and greater avatars with different stats. :( Maybe for these deities we can just squeeze two class tables into the one line?

In my initial experiments, I only changed Ilmater and some nobodies like Isakkhu, Khass, and Murdane, who don't even use the new infobox lines. I haven't gotten back around to working on the infoboxes again. So changing anything I did isn't going to be a problem.

The other changes look fine to me.

— BadCatMan (talk) 02:15, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I have officially gone to 11 with this, but let's see how you like it. The new template is available at User:Moviesign/Template:Deity and you can see it at work at User:Moviesign/Sandbox/Ilmater. I think I left all the old parameters alone so this probably won't break any current deity pages, but I moved most of the data to where I envision it should be, into the edition-specific sections. (Do not depend on this test data, it could be right or completely bogus.) One interesting feature: the power level of the deity listed directly beneath the name is the highest one specified in the edition-specific sections. If you set power5e to something, it will replace the Big Cheese which is set by power4e.

Second edition has Spheres, 3rd and 4th have Domains. Fourth edition uses Sphere of Influence, but all the rest use Portfolio. Likewise, 4th has Dominion, but others have Home Plane and Realm. I figure we should try to use the terminology of the edition being presented to make it easier on the author. If parameter names don't match what the source books use, then the author has to dig into the documentation to find out which is which. Yeah, it's gonna be fun writing the doc page for this. :P I left out the subtitles for "Rules Information", "Worshipers" and "Influence" in each edition-specific section because the info box already qualifies for it's own postal code. I put in a "As a Mortal" section for the few items that apply.

It looks kinda bad in the monobook skin, at least on my ancient MacBook running Firefox 3.6.28. I'm not sure how this could be improved, but it probably involves messing with the CSS files for the wiki.

Please check it out and leave feedback. It's still a work in progress.

Edit: I moved portfolio/spheres/domains closer to worshipers.
Moviesign (talk) 06:28, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

Great work!! I haven't looked into the matter, but I can say that it looks Ok from an android device (both from Opera Browser and from application Wikia Game Guides)
Jandor (talk) 07:04, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Movie... that looks extremely good... our infoboxes are starting to look as good, if not better, than Wookieepedia :)
Darkwynters (talk) 17:25, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

That looks pretty good. It looks fine in Monobook and the latest Firefox too.
— BadCatMan (talk) 03:52, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

It is done. Let me know if anything breaks. I'll get to work on the documentation.
Moviesign (talk) 13:41, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

I stumbled upon a minor point in the template: It has a parameter name called "cleric alignments", but displays "Worshipers alignments" on the page. Here was a lot of talk about the cleric alignments, but the final status got worshipers alignments. Now I could not find worshipers alignments in Faiths and Pantheons, the definite deity place in 3rd edition, though 2nd edition does have them. Did is miss them? How is it in other editions? If worshiper alignments are hard to get, should we switch to clerics alginments? In the end would which one would be the more interesting one to have?
Daranios (talk) 21:07, January 19, 2017 (UTC)

Looks like I never answered this, sorry. :-/ cleric alignments was the original parameter name, I believe, but since some sources list "Worshiper alignments" I changed the label to that because it is more general (clerics are obviously worshipers). Put whatever alignments you can find for the followers of the deity in that field and explain any discrepancies in the article, if necessary.
Moviesign (talk) 05:25, December 7, 2017 (UTC)

With the addition of 5th edition Channel Divinity powers, I decided to remove the word "prayer" from the 4th edition categories and add "(4e)" to the end of them so I could use much of the same logic in the {{Spell}} and {{Spell table}} templates to automatically generate categories. Let me know if you have any questions or see anything amiss.
Moviesign (talk) 05:25, December 7, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Worshiper/Cleric Alignments: In 3e, they are distinct, but the former are never limited. That is, a CG character can worship an LG god.

Also, worship is somewhat misleading, as most folk worship a whole slew of the gods all at once, depending on what they need. Just about everyone sacrifices to Umberlee before sailing, for example, and many thank Chauntea before dinner for the good food that they are about to eat.

It is really patron deities that matter, but that goes beyond worship. Nevertheless, in 3e, a CG character can have an LG patron. It just determines where he or she is going to go upon dying, and a CG character might have an interesting life in an LG afterlife.

The "one-step" rule only applies to those actually getting spell power from a deity.
~ Lhynard (talk) 05:58, December 7, 2017 (UTC)
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