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Forums: Helping Hand > Prestige classes and Organizations

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Here is the beginning of a discussion started on Knight of the Flying Hunt between Daranios and myself:
I'm a big fan of 3e. Since a lot of the prestige classes are PRETTY DARN synonymous with the major organizations of Faerûn, I think we've gone a bit back and forth over the years how to differentiate the two from one another.

With this article, and Knights of the Flying Hunt, I'm trying to:

1. Limit overlap of information
2. Have the prestige class page focus on the individual, as per source material. This would include, training, abilities, special items (using basic class pages like fighter or cleric as a broad template)
3. Have the organization page focus on the order and their role on Toril as a whole. This would focus on history, activities, leadership, organization, recruitment, relationships, etc.

I would love to get some feedback on this and extrapolate it other pairings such as:

...and with all the others too!

If a lot of people are on board I could add this into proposals or guidelines, or just keep it in mind as I continue adding organizations and do some work on prestige classes as I would like to do. Ruf (talk) 04:41, August 24, 2018 (UTC)

If there is major overlap in the first place I tend towards having one article only, as we mostly try to relegate crunchy info into infoboxes and footnotes. I think this might work fine for this case, the Red Wizards and the Knights of the Weave.
In other cases I agree with your suggestions for the separation. Guideline for the distinction could be if most members of the organization have or aim to have the corresponding prestige class or not. Based on this we would keep Harper agent and Harper scout separat, as can already be seen by having two different types of members. Similarly, the Church of Tyr presumably also includes clerics, paladins, etc., not only Justiciars. (Thinking about it, Thayan knights are not officially part of the Red Wizards organization, right?)
By the way, is this the right place for this more general discussion? Daranios (talk) 13:54, August 24, 2018 (UTC)
No I think, maybe the prestige class, organization page or the forums would be the place for a discussion. Just posted it here cause it was late at night and didn't want to start a whole "thing" hahah. I can do that, and move this conversation over. Ruf (talk) 03:25, August 25, 2018 (UTC)

While personally I prefer having separate articles for each individual class, kit, organization, etc I am open to other ideas.

For example, I would say in certain cases, like Red Wizards and Knight of the Flying Hunt as Daranios mentioned, we could put all the information in the organization page with a section describing the more-crunchy class-like bits. I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks, and other opinions. Thanks everyone!

I think while the Thayan Knights work with the Red Wizzes, they aren't a specific knightly order per se.

Ruf (talk) 03:25, August 25, 2018 (UTC)


To give a wishy-washy view: it depends. :) For organizations like the Harpers and the Red Wizards, the organization is vastly bigger than one prestige class and spans editions, so it makes a lot of sense to have a page for the organization as a whole and separate pages for the associated kits, specialty priests, prestige classes, substitution levels, paragon paths, and so on. I'd recommend this for the Harpers and the various Harper agent, Harper mage, Harper priest, and Harper paragon prestige classes and so on, and for the Red Wizards of Thay organization and Red Wizard prestige class, as we do now.

In some cases, there might not be enough information or a fixed enough definition to justify an article, so the crunchy information is better placed in an organization page. I did this with Companions of the Noble Heart and others, including a 3e paladin variant in the organization page. In other cases, the class information might completely overlap the organization's lore (particularly organisations introduced solely through class fluff), so only one article seems necessary.

I think a hybrid approach is fine, adapting to the circumstances of each issue and avoiding repetition where possible while focusing where necessary. On the other hand, there's a benefit to having a completist approach where every relevant kit, prestige class, paragon path, and so on is listed. But for that, we can categorise redirects and even have multiple infoboxes on a single page where required.
— BadCatMan (talk) 09:55, August 25, 2018 (UTC)


BadCat said most everything I was going to say and was more complete. I'm fine with putting categories on a redirect page when a class (with a different name) is defined on an organization page or vice versa. The only issue with putting both {{Class}} and {{Organization}} infoboxes on the same page is that they take up a lot of vertical space that may not be supported by enough accompanying text and you have a large block of blank space. Aesthetics aside, this is still the way to go if the alternative is having two articles with 90% of the same info in them.
Moviesign (talk) 13:02, August 25, 2018 (UTC)
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