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So I notice that a change was made in the template for the Roll of Years, such that year -681, the Year of Eternal Amber (originally the Year of Nightmares), was randomly moved and placed in the -503 slot, while year -645, the Year of Maleficent Counsel (originally the Year of Eternal Amber), has been moved to the -616 slot. No explanation is given for this, whether a canonical change by WOTC or a discussion of it here on the forums--just a notation in the edit history of a new data structure and a draft approved. What's going on here? Is this something that needs to be reversed? If not, and this is an approved change, then some more work needs to be done since the shifting of two years has caused all of the year events and notes to be off from -680 to -503. Any assistance would be appreciated!
NieveMac (talk) 18:22, June 26, 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this answers your question, but did you check the notes on the Years pages here and here? The relevant links point here.
Possessed Priest (talk) 22:03, June 26, 2020 (UTC)
Hmm...while it is indeed relevant, and explains the placement at -503, that note indicates such was a mistake and so should not be duplicated on the template here. I would also note that the template doesn't include Year of Nightmares at all despite that note saying it is the correct name for -681, and that the Year of Eternal Amber should be at -645 where it was originally, not -616 (which is also not explained at all). If the note you link to is considered WOTC's official final word on the matter, this would suggest the way the template was before editing (Year of Nightmares at -681, Year of Eternal Amber at -645) is correct and we should revert to it. I go to Candlekeep myself on occasion and in a thread on errata in the Roll of Years it was specifically noted that the Year of Maleficent Counsel should be considered a regional variant (as stated at the end of that linked note). So while I will wait for more people to give a consensus, it seems to me we should revert to how the template was originally.
NieveMac (talk) 02:21, June 27, 2020 (UTC)
The problem with −681 DR and subsequent years being shifted has been resolved. When I changed the data structure to accommodate a new feature, it became a sequence (meaning that the order matters) as opposed to an array where order did not matter. I had forgotten that a year before, when I created the original data file from the Roll of Years on the WotC site, I kept the order in which it was presented (that is, that −681 was wedged in between −502 and −503). Now that −681 is in the correct spot, the shifted years are back to normal and we can move on to discussing the best choice for the canon year names. I'm creating a table of discrepancies to make the discussion easier and I will post it separately so it can be expanded and edited as we go. Other posts can added below it, or we can keep pushing it down as we go, if that makes it easier.
Moviesign (talk) 16:38, June 27, 2020 (UTC)
This is the working table that compares the names of years found in various sources. It will be expanded with other years as discussion progresses. Sources so far are The Grand History of the Realms, the FR Calendar tool, the Roll of Years .rtf file from WotC, the Candlekeep forum, and the wiki.
Year GHotR Calendar Tool Roll of Years Candlekeep FRWiki
−681 Nightmares Eternal Amber Nightmares Nightmares Eternal Amber
−645 --- Maleficent Counsel Eternal Amber
Maleficent Counsel
Eternal Amber Maleficent Counsel
382 --- --- Steel Roses Steel Roses Steel Roses
548 --- --- Eloene Bride Eloene Bride Eloene Bride
−289 Shattered Havens Spiteful Stones Spiteful Stones Spiteful Stones Spiteful Stones
−208 --- Shattered Havens Shattered Havens Shattered Havens Shattered Havens
−64 Gleaming Frost Gleaming Frost Gleaming Frost Gleaming Frost Gleaming Frost
64 Gleaming Frost Boisterous Orc Boisterous Orc Boisterous Orc Boisterous Orc
−33 Slowing Sands Harpist's Delight Harpist's Delight Harpist's Delight Harpist's Delight
33 --- Slowing Sands Slowing Sands Slowing Sands Slowing Sands
88 --- the Flood the Flood the Flood the Flood
108 the Flood Mortified Monk Mortified Monk Mortified Monk Mortified Monk
285 Wasteful Pride Wasted Pride Wasted Pride Wasted Pride Wasted Pride
737 Winded Herald Purple Wyrm Purple Wyrm Purple Wyrm Purple Wyrm
742 Comrades-at-Arms Wavering Voice Wavering Voice Wavering Voice Wavering Voice
936 Sky Raiders Sky Riders Sky Riders Sky Riders Sky Riders
1102 the Chaste the Chaste Maiden the Chaste Maiden the Chaste Maiden the Chaste Maiden
1209 Blazing Banners Blazing Banners Blazing Banners Blazing Banners Blazing Banners
1212 Blazing Banners Ocean's Wrath Ocean's Wrath Ocean's Wrath Ocean's Wrath
Thanks for coming in and explaining; I had considered messaging you directly but I wanted to make sure everyone was aware of your reasoning and sources. That error in the coding makes a lot of sense, and I'm glad the shifting doesn't need to happen, as that'd be a fair amount of work! As for the various years in the table, to again refer back to Candlekeep, I asked about the majority of these since there seemed to be no answer to which was correct (particularly since a lot of them stemmed from apparent errors in the Grand History which was the most recent publication where year names were addressed and relevant). This is the answer I was given by George Krashos:

"I'm not saying mine is definitive, but this is the one Ed Greenwood uses:

  • -289 Year of Spiteful Stones
  • -208 Year of Shattered Havens
  • -64 Year of Gleaming Frost
  • -33 Year of the Harpist's Delight
  • 33 Year of Slowing Sands
  • 64 Year of the Boisterous Orc
  • 88 Year of the Flood
  • 108 Year of the Mortified Monk
  • 285 Year of Wasted Pride
  • 737 Year of the Purple Wyrm
  • 742 Year of the Wavering Voice
  • 936 Year of the Sky Riders
  • 1102 Year of the Chaste Maiden
  • 1209 Year of the Blazing Banners
  • 1212 Year of Ocean's Wrath."

Personally I think year 88 and 108 should be switched due to the latter being a flood of Unthalass occurred, but I will of course defer to the writers and creators. As for the rest, there seems to be a clear consensus on 285, 737, 742, 936, 1102, 1209, and 1212, while 382 and 548 are years which were mistakenly never given names and those chosen were outsourced to Candlekeep members. Finally, as I stated above both Krashos and Greenwood, as well as other long-time members at Candlekeep, agreed that alternate names can be kept as regional variants, specifically citing Maleficent Counsel (and Unanswered Riddle, for year 994, the Year of the Weary Scribe).

In the case of year -681, it seems quite clear that based on the year event listed both here and in the Grand History (Netherese arcanists migrate into the Demiplane of Nightmares, where their descendants are transformed into hideous, twisted monsters called the Night Parade) the year name should be Nightmares. (Plus three sources give it that name, to only two for Eternal Amber.) By process of elimination (and since the sources for year -645 are equally divided), -645 should be Eternal Amber. This is just my personal opinion, though it does seem to also be Krashos and Greenwood's. The relevant post  .
NieveMac (talk) 03:38, June 28, 2020 (UTC)
Don't know why I can't link to the Candlekeep forums...guess you'll just have to take my word for where I got that quote.
NieveMac (talk) 03:53, June 28, 2020 (UTC)
I removed the duplicate post, fixed up the formatting to make it more readable, and adjusted the link. Equal signs are for defining named parameters in a template, so you have to escape them with {{=}}. There is also the Candlekeep FAQ entry 5.4.1. Are there errors in the Roll of Years?
Moviesign (talk) 12:58, June 28, 2020 (UTC)
Ah thanks, I was not aware of that little formatting detail. And yes, that FAQ entry was linked by Possessed Priest above, and was where I got my info about -681 and -645's proper placement. Your explanation of the data file issue covered that, though, so we can move on.
Since there has been no further discussion, I have changed the data file making -681 DR the Year of Nightmares and -645 DR the Year of Eternal Amber.
Moviesign (talk) 00:39, July 12, 2020 (UTC)