Talk: Crypt of the Shadowking

Correct Year

The Realms Year would be 1364 (As in the Villain’s Lorebook it states that Ravendas took hold of Iriaebor in 1363 DR, and in pg 40 of the novel it says that she took hold of Iriaebor about a year ago. Also in pg 15 of Polyhedron Newszine #93, in the Shadevar description in also says the Realms year is 1364. And as it definitely is not 1357, since there are priests of Cyric in the novel. As well as in pg 98 in Villain’s Lorebook The same as in the Polyhedron #93, that the Fellowship of the Dreaming Dragon encountered a shadevar in the year 1364 DR.)

Hi AlexMcClay, I moved your comments here about the correct year over here to the talk page. Please keep up the great work with the index and summary! Ruf (talk) 12:45, February 13, 2020 (UTC)

The Realms year is 1362 DR as Ed cleared it up in a tweet. 

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1229054227776966661

Greenwood is mistaken, especially when you give him incorrect information; the main sources say 1363, not 1364, and no source said 1362. He only said that because you told him it was from Grand History. He didn't even write the novels or sourcebooks in question, so why people pester him with things he's not responsible for is beyond me. This was already solvable through research. I'm going to go through the evidence to clear this up.

First, Polyhedron 93, page 15. It says 1364 for the shadevari appearance, but that's low down our canon rankings.

Second, Villains' Lorebook page 15 explicitly has the events of Crypt of the Shadowking begin in 1363 DR, with the earlier events in about 1357 DR, the "seven years" ago of the novel. Page 98 also puts the shadevar appearance in 1364 DR, which contradicts the earlier information in the same book. Either it's in error or the novel runs over 1363/1364. In fact, the shadevar write-up seems to rewrite the Polyhedron version, which is why it retains the 1364 date.

Third, The Grand History of the Realms page 146 also explicitly dates the events of Crypt to 1363 DR. Its mid-Hammer to mid-Marpenoth (ten months) covers the "a year or so ago" mentioned in Crypt. It's shorter than expected, but it fits.

Fourth, Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction is plainly wrong with its 1357 and 1360 dates from Crypt and Curse of the Shadowmage. The 1357 date is probably meant to refer to the past events of the novel, but it got screwed up. So, ignore this.

The sourcebooks are in agreement, and our Canon policy supports them. 1362 is utterly impossible. 1364 is possible but contradicted. 1363 is accurate and well supported. — BadCatMan (talk) 03:03, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

I think even Grand History of the Realms is wrong. I missed the event in 1363 DR, but according to the Grand History of the Realms, The events of Curse of the Shadowmage, the novel that follows the events of Crypt, is set in 1364 DR, and according to the novel, in page 10, the novel starts in the Month Uktar, then after that in page 20 it says that the events of the crypt happened TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO, implying that the novel Crypt of the Shadowking happened in 1362 DR. The Grand History of the Realms seems to have it wrong, but it's your wiki, so you can decide whatever you want. I'll have it as 1362 DR in my notes.

Again the "1362 is utterly impossible' sounds really negative towards me, I did this research and you're treating it like I did nothing, which makes me feel a bit annoyed. Your wiki, your rules, do what you want.

As for the 1363 DR, according to Villans lore book, the novel STARTS in 1364 DR, but Estah mentions that Ravendas took over Iriaebor a year ago, 1363 DR, that's the 1363 DR that the Villans lorebook mentions. I guess the prologue was set in 1363 DR, or maybe 1362 DR, but i don't know about that. AlexMcClay (talk) 15:45, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

It's not my wiki, it's everyone's wiki. They're not my rules, they're the rules everyone who's worked here has agreed to. Since you copied chunks of the novel, and left me to clean it up; then copied lines from the novel again, and left me to clean it up; misnamed various articles, and left me to clean it up; and bothered Ed Greenwood with false information to have your way on the date, well, I'm afraid I'm not well-disposed to your research. First, try doing some. Second, communicate it clearly and accurately. The canon lore is retconned and re-dated all the time. This isn't something we fix with a pet theory, even by tricking Greenwood into backing it up. We note the issue clearly and use the most recent, most valid sources. — BadCatMan (talk) 16:09, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

First, I know I copied some text from the novels, you pointed them out and I did my best to correct them, so no need to be a mean, I Didn't misname various articles, the only one I misnamed was Morhion's Tower. I didn't bother Ed Greenwood with the date so that I could "have my way", there were conflicting sources, I just asked him if he could clear it up for me. The research that I did is exactly the same that you did, we literally got the same results, the only difference is that I missed the 1363 DR date in Grand History of the Realms.

Here I'll compare

You

First, Polyhedron 93, page 15. It says 1364 for the shadevari appearance, but that's low down our canon rankings.

Me

Also in pg 15 of Polyhedron Newszine #93, in the Shadevar description in also says the Realms year is 1364

Its the same

You

Second, Villain's Lorebook page 15 explicitly has the events of Crypt of the Shadowking begin in 1363 DR, with the earlier events in about 1357 DR, the "seven years" ago of the novel. Page 98 also puts the shadevar appearance in 1364 DR, which contradicts the earlier information in the same book. Either it's in error or the novel runs over 1363/1364. In fact, the shadevar write-up seems to rewrite the Polyhedron version, which is why it retains the 1364 date.

Me

As in the Villain’s Lorebook it states that Ravendas took hold of Iriaebor in 1363 DR, and in pg 40 of the novel it says that she took hold of Iriaebor about a year ago

Literally the same, just that you say that the novel started in 1363 DR because that what the sourcebook starts with, Ravendas taking over Iriaebor. While I said 1364 DR because the novel Starts with Caledan entering Iriaebor.

You

Third, The Grand History of the Realms page 146 also explicitly dates the events of Crypt to 1363 DR. Its mid-Hammer to mid-Marpenoth (ten months) covers the "a year or so ago" mentioned in Crypt. It's shorter than expected, but it fits.

I Missed that source, and I said, that's my bad.

You

Fourth, Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction is plainly wrong with its 1357 and 1360 dates from Crypt and Curse of the Shadowmage. The 1357 date is probably meant to refer to the past events of the novel, but it got screwed up. So, ignore this.

Me

And as it definitely is not 1357, since there are priests of Cyric in the novel

We both have the same.

At the end I settled with 1362 DR because in Grand History of the Realms the latest novel involving the characters, Curse of the Shadowmage, takes place in 1364 DR, that's what is says in Grand History of the Realms. And in the novel it states that the events of the Crypt happened two and a half years ago. that's why I said its 1362 DR. so its not "utterly impossible" as you put it.

"I'm afraid I'm not well-disposed to your research. First, try doing some."  We literally have the same dates, did the same research and have the same information, so I didn't trick Ed with "false information", when its literally the same info that you found. That was really mean to say.

The way you replied was really aggressive, some of the moderators ask stuff nicely but I guess that doesn't really matter to you. I might not contribute much more to the site, as this constant scolding from you feels like I'm not wanted. AlexMcClay (talk) 18:28, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

I was the moderator asking stuff nicely. If you'll recall, I was very patient and polite with you on your talk page and on mine when I asked you not to copy from the sourcebooks and the novel each time I caught you doing it. I'll note that sometimes you didn't respond to me at all. After the second time, I could've blocked you for life, and didn't. But rather than stop doing it, you merely decreased and made only cursory efforts to clean up. I've spent hours fixing up your articles and picking out the copied lines. So I'm entitled to be frustrated. Yet I'm still being quite patient with you.

Now, you did not miss Grand History, you said to Greenwood in your tweet "And the last one is 1362 DR I believe That one is from “Grand History of the Realms” though it doesn’t give a Realms date for the events from that novel, it given a date for the Curse of the Shadowmage novel, 1364 DR, which i think is set 2 years after Crypt of the Shadowking." While that's very confusingly written, you did incorrectly attribute a date of 1362 to Crypt according to Grand History. That's the key problem here, and is why Greenwood said 1362 back to you. — BadCatMan (talk) 00:53, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

I meant that I missed the 1363 DR date, I do admit that you were nice at the start, but this conversation was a bit negative, and you were being quite dismissive about what research I did, even though, as I pointed out earlier, it was the same as yours. The times that I didn't respond was because I didn't check the wiki that much, and I was new, so I was still trying to understand how it worked, for instance, I had no idea there was the talk page, and how to respond to it.

And for the Crypt stuff, Those were some of the first articles I published and I published them in bulk, one after the other, so that is 100% my fault and I admit that, I was just starting out in the wiki. But if you look at the articles I made of Curse of the Shadowmage, I didn't copy any of the novel, I wrote those all in my own words. Even the articles that got deleted, I rewrote them and they should be fine now, those are the Tyveris and the Talek Talembar articles.

I'm sorry that you had to spend hours looking and changing my articles, I had no idea that you spent all those hours correcting my miustakes. For the future, I would suggest that it would be in the best interest of both of us that you send me a message if you find any errors so that I can correct future articles, even though now I learned my lesson and I haven't copied text from sources. I use discord way more often, so I'll add you on there. AlexMcClay (talk) 13:54, April 4, 2020 (UTC)